83 240D stalled and won't restart. ideas?
 

It always started, w/o being plugged in all winter. Yesterday was in the 40's and it started right up as usual, I drove about a mile and all of a sudden it stalled, I tried restarting and it fired but stalled again. I pulled onto a side street and tried starting to no avail. I thought maybe it ran out of fuel at 260 miles on the odo since the last fill up. So I went back today with 2 gal of fuel and still won't start. I even replaced the old hand priming pump with the new leakfree black one to make it easier to prime. There is power to the glow plugs though I didn't check if any of them just burned out (they were fine last time I checked them in Oct 07). The battery was low so II took it home to charge and it won't start w freshly charged batt. Very little fuel was coming out of inj lines 1&4 and no fuel from 2&3 inj lines (after cracking the lines). Fuel filter has less than 400 miles on it. clear filter is new and clean. Bubble free fuel was coming out of return from filter into cigar hose.

Is the IP chain or gear driven? The camshaft is turning so the chain did not snap. Vacuum is not necessary for starting only for shut off is that right? What should I try next? Never a dull moment when it comes to 25 yr old cars. Thanks!

stalled
 

try changing main fuel filter "the big one". i changed filters once. made it 300 miles and my car died couldn't figure it out. got a tow home put old filter back on car "just to see" car started and ran.

Pull the vacuum line off the shutoff valve and try. Someone reported here of a vacuum system leak that would slowly apply vacuum to the shut off valve and shut a running engine down. Jim

Have you ever cleaned out the fuel tank ?
I suggest you put more than two gallons in and try it again...
see if you have gunk on the screen up taller than two gallons would uncover...
then report back...

My guess is that you still have air in the system. Pump that primer 100 more times.

Already tried that didn't help. Any other ideas Jim? Thanks!

The clear filter by the priming pump is full of fuel and it is clear and clean with no junk in it. Fuel is flowing as far as I know. Still think there's a dirty fuel tank?

You have three filters.... but if there is crud on the one in the tank you just can't get enough fuel to run the car.... but typically it is easy to diagnose by simply putting more fuel into the tank... be sure you take the cap off and put it back on.... you may have a vacuum in there...

I would be looking for someone to tow me if your in a place where "tow starting" would be an option.

Hook up a bottle full of fuel to the send/return lines. If that works, you can be certain it's the filter at the tank.

If that doesn't, check your vacuum system. Also, when was the last time you changed your air filter?

Instantaneous start remedy try WD-40 or diesel starting fluid. Meanwhile how long since its last valves clearances checked? Valves usually aint the kinda thing that would make it stall and die, but can be contributing factor to yer restart dilemma if theyre waay off spec.

That's what I was gonna try next. Thanks!

I drained the 2 gal from the tank. the short length of hose from the tank was dripping (probably why I was getting lousy mpg) so I replaced the hose. While I was in there, I blew into the fuel pickup screen and it was clear. I put 5 gal fresh fuel, changed the secondary fuel filter, primed it good but still no start. Fuel is coming out of the IP return line. However, no fuel out of the injector hard lines.

What next? Does having fuel coming out of the IP return mean that the pump is being driven?
Should I pull the vacuum shut off and see if it's stuck? What other tests can I do?

This is sorta a two person job... but have you turned the engine over with the fuel lines loose at the injector ? I have to do this on my Ford Diesel Tractor to get it bled...
You just crack the seal ... use the starter... when fuel is coming out you tighten the lines quickly... it may start while you are doing this..

You seem to have covered your bases well with regard to the fuel supply. I don't believe that filters are your problem. Generally, filters don't shut an engine down at idle..........they restrict fuel at higher fuel flows. They can cause a drop in fuel pressure to the IP and the idle might get a bit "lumpy" but they don't cause the engine to just shutdown unless they're plugged solid.

So, my thoughts now go toward the fuel pump. Without pressure from the pump, the IP can't fill the barrels and you won't get anything from the hard lines.

Disconnect the outlet line from the fuel pump to the secondary filter and put it into a clear jar. Crank the engine for 15 seconds. See if you get about 2 oz. of fuel in the jar. If you don't..........the pump needs replacement.

Brian,

Thanks for the ideas.

See pic below. I had a extra banjo which I capped off and installed on the filter so that fuel does not squirt out doing the test. The banjo removed is the returns for the IP and injectors and when I cranked, no fuel came out.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c3...032708_001.jpg

Steve,

Did you try to get fuel from the line that goes from the pump to the filter? That's the line you want to test.

Now I'm wondering which pump you meant. Inj pump or lift pump? I think you want me to test the lift pump? That makes sense.

I aslo took the fuel shutoff solenoid out and it was not stuck. Pic below is the way it came out. With a Mightyvac on it, it retracted.

I took a compression reading alsoand all cylinders are 320 psi (cold obviously) except the one closest to the firewall which was at 380 (is that cyl 1 or 4?)

What is the easiest way to determine if the inj pump is actually turning? I understand it is driven off the vac pump gear through a dowel? Is there anyway to check w/o removing the vac pump (which is ok btw)?

Before I forget, there was a bit of black stuff on the banjo return fitting which is either algae or bacteria? I wonder if it is blocking some passages in the IP? There is a small banjo fitting on the IP near the lift pump which I believe is the lube for the IP. I will take that off and see if oil squirts out to rule out IP lube starvation.
http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c3...elsolenoid.jpg

Lift pump.

Damm! I guess I have a habit of fearing the worst and too focused it was the IP lol. I'll go check the LP output later.

You've got to start at the lift pump. No pressure from that pump means no fuel to the IP. If the IP has fuel..........and no air..........it will deliver it to the injectors.

Furthermore, the IP doesn't just stop sending fuel to the injectors unless it suffers a catastropic internal failure..........and, to my knowledge..........that doesn't ever happen.

There is fuel from the LP, approx 3 oz in 15 seconds. There's lube oil pressure at the IP. What's next?

Time to drop it and take a look. I'd replace it just to be sure.

I've been tricked before by the fuel filter...........

A new secondary fuel filter was put it yesterday. Zero miles on it :D Primary filter is nice and clean w less than 400 miles. What next?

Is there an online blog on rebuilding the 4 cyl inline Bosch IP?

How many times did you pump the primer?

About 50? Is that enough?

You'd think so, but I'd go a bit more.

You should hear the fuel escape via the return line at the secondary.

I've got a suspicion that you've got an air leak somewhere. Look for any fuel weeping anywhere on the lines from the lift pump to the secondary to the IP.

Does he not need to crack the connection at the injector if he has air in the line ?
How is air going to get out when air pressure won't pop the injector ...?
I have to do this on the Ford tractor...

See........now you made me go and check the FSM.

Yes, the "union screw" at the fuel fliter, which is the horizontal outlet line seen in the photo in post #16, should be cracked and the primer should be operated untl clear fuel emerges from the union screw.

Then, the screw is tightened and the primer pump is then operated until an audible rattling sound is heard at the IP bypass valve.

Additionally, the IP bypass valve can be the culprit here if it's allowing fuel to pass at lower than the specified pressure. In this situation, the fuel pump cannot build pressure to the IP. A quick test for this would be to clamp the return line from the bypass valve. If the engine starts immediately, the valve is the culprit.

Look at the photo in post #16. There is a brown fuel line that goes right over the top of the red dipstick. That line leads to the IP and the bypass valve. The bypass valve is the bolt that secures the banjo at the end of this line. If you can plug this line to see if the engine will start.........you can confirm if the bypass valve is NG.

That brown line that goes over the red dipstick handle is the clear hard nylon line that turned brown over the years. Isn't that aka the IP return which meet up with the injector return line and the cigar hose at the 3 way banjo? The nylon line cannot be crimped without damaging it. What if I take the config of photo in post #16 and add a bolt and washer to the hanging open banjo to close it off? Would that work to test the IP bypass valve?

Yep, that's exactly the line we're talking about.

Anything that you can use to close that line.........and allow the system to build pressure........will do the job.

Yes, crimping it is out of the question.


Also, see if you can pump the primer and get the bypass valve to rattle.............or does the fuel just flow right past the bypass valve and out the open banjo fitting?

I'll see if I can give that a try tomorrow.

I'll be away all day tomorrow.........so, I won't be able to follow up with you until the evening.

The bypass valve is a serious possibility as the culprit at this point. If it won't rattle and just allows fuel to pass as you pump the primer..........that's the problem.

What ???? Both of you are quitting in the middle of this mystery ?
Geez... I want my money back...

..........what money??

...........you ain't got no money.

No problem, it's not my daily driver and it's parked in a safe place. It'd be great if that's the culprit. Is it a ball and spring check valve? Why would it rattle? Do you have a link to a pic?

Send me your paypal id and password and I'll send your refund.

THAT is why I need it Back !!!

Yep, it's a ball and spring check valve.

Apparently, it must unseat the ball when you get the system up to sufficient pressure with the primer pump. I've never checked it personally.

The pic is in the manual. But, it's very easy to remove. Just follow the line to the IP and remove the bolt that secures the banjo. The bolt has the check valve built into it.

And the password !!! Cute ...why don't I just post it here in the thread ?
LOL

.........sure, that'll be fine..........faster that way.

I took the fuel sender out so I can vacuum out the 2 gallons of fuel to replace the leaky hose at the bottom of the tank. I checked the sender and found the reserve light contacts not working (I had cleaned the sender last summer and it was working then). Upon disassembly I found the contacts gummed up with the same black algae crap. Maybe this crap is keeping the ball from seating? Or maybe I didn't pump enough? Anyway I'm gonna pump more first and listen with a long screw driver as a stethosscope and see if I hear anything. If that don't work then I'll close the banjo.

...........only if you don't have any fuel filters in the system.........:eek:

The noise you are listening for is vaguely like a grinding noise. When you pump the hand pump it slowly pushes the air out of the system and makes no noticeable or characteristic noise. Then, when the injection pump, filter, and all the lines are more or less "solid" the check valve chatters as you continue to pump. I usually pump it for a significant time, like another 50 strokes, when it is making the noise as the air on the injection pump/high pressure side of the system is pretty difficult to drag out of the high sides of loops. There just isn't that kind of flow velocity in all the parallel paths. I have no experience with the "new" hand pumps. But with the old ones there was no real penalty from pumping longer. Other than the skin on your fingers being rubbed off if you don't use a cloth to protect your skin.

The new ones don't have the hand pump at all. I just replaced the filters in my 1999 E300D TurboDiesel. You prime the system by cranking the engine. Even after filling the filter with fuel before putting it in, this still took several 30 second cranking sessions to get the engine to fire.

Good luck. Jim

Funola: Please let me know how you are doing.....I am reading your thread with much interest. Please make sure you report your progress to the end at which point you are hopefully running. You have me on suspense.

Are my following statements true or false......

The test of the entire fuel delivery is the appearance of equal amounts of bubble free fuel at a high pressure and slow flow rate at the cracked nuts by the injectors???

If this test proves true then lift pump, IP, filters should support a start condition upon cranking??

Assuming the Injectors are good, good glow plug system, copious amounts of air, engine compression above 220 psi per cyl then a cold start should occur??

AND you need to include a good starter motor and plenty of electricity to it... the speed of the compression is also critical.

Hundreds of strokes of the primer pump in another attempt to bleed the system did not work, nor did I hear any rattle of the check valve. It still wouldn't start. I took out the check valve (pic) and blew into it and it was not leaking and looked clean enough. I pushed on the ball with a wooden stick and there is spring pressure. Not much to go wrong with a ball and spring. This check valve seals pressure from within the IP (pressure from outside the IP opens it). More later.

Edit: I made a boo boo in the last sentence. After looking at the pic and remembering where I poked the check valve ball from (hole at the end of the bolt), I realize it is pressure from within the IP which opens the check valve.

http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c3...032808_007.jpg

With check valve out, I hooked up a 15 psi pressure gauge in config of pic below and cranked the engine. Pressure slowly builds and went to about 2-3 psi. A little fuel came out from the check valve port on the IP and the engine fired very briefly. I then put the check valve back in and cranked more, pressure went up to about 8 to 10 psi and it fired up!!! More later.


http://i31.photobucket.com/albums/c3...032908_001.jpg

http://s31.photobucket.com/albums/c397/funola/?action=view&current=Photo_032908_001.jpg

Sounds like you are winning the argument. Keep us posted. Jim

she's running!
 

I went back to the car, disconnected the pressure gauge and put back the 3 way banjo and fired her up! It stalled a few times due to air but by feathering the pedal I got the air out and she's back to running normal.

So it was air and my inability to bleed the system. The factory bleed procedure didn't work. I still don't understand why it is so difficult to bleed.

Thanks everyone for the help, especially Brain for telling me it is NOT the IP, which I and the fuel inj shop I was calling for advise was pretty certain of based on everything I tried.

So the turning point was removing the check valve and crank, which got rid of enough air and brought enough fuel into the IP which allowed it to get an itzy-bitzy amount of fuel to the injectors and she fired. .