Is my diesel dead?!?!
 

Was having a pleasant drive to work this morning in my 82 300cd, flying down the highway at 75. All of a sudden it would only do 70...then 65.....then 60....then 55. I immediately thought it must be the same fuel problem I had fixed last week. I pulled over as the car stalled out. I tried to restart it (still thinking it was fuel). The engine gave a slight turn (I think) and then wouldn't even turn. I was then thinking my batteries dead? Why would a diesel stall out from a battery being dead (Hey...It was early in the morning). I then noticed the temp gauge was hot....oh crap! I opened up the hood and my heart stopped....oil is all over the top of my engine! Is my baby dead!

I didn't have much time to look at it and couldn't see where the oil was coming out at yet. I had her towed home and will have a good look at her tonight after work. Should I start planning her funeral?

At that speed heat seizing is less than good. When engine cools off get some oil into it and try it. Some people are born under a lucky star. Unfortunatly for you I feel it was daytime. Hope not.
You are indicating the heat of friction as the likely cause of a very hot engine. All the parts expand until seizure or enough friction is present to bind the engine. Sometimes then a part fails sometimes not. You will know your answer if you can get it started again.
For others. Again one more unfortunate illustration that if you care for your car a low oil pressure warning device is manditory. Especially as these cars get older and older. Even it may not save you but at least you then have a much better chance.
Spend the twenty or twenty five dollars to construct one. Not rocket science and you may well live to regret you did not do it. Many have in the last couple of years alone on this site. Not worth procastinating over either. Strangley enough might even increase the resale value on ebay. Or another example of my crazy inverse logic is without one you may not have anything worth putting on ebay eventually period. So your low oil pressure warning systems cost around twenty dollars but might be worth thousands.

... hot... oil spray covering engine... my GUESS is your motor mount failed, and caused the power steering belt to cut into your oil cooler hose... this sprayed oil out of the motor, causing it to loose pressure, this caused your motor to bind.... only thing I don't understand is why your motor got hot... if your coolant was good... oil causing the belt driving the water pump to slip? let us know what happened, and how it all turns out.

Murdered.

An oil line must have failed. Yep its DOA.

The intense generation of heat by the unlubricated parts cannot be moved out quick enough. Remember the oil as one of it's primary function is to facilitate the movement of heat. So for example you could raise the bearing temperatures to melting or yield plasticity well before the heat could get away with no or little oil. Enough heat got generated to raise the coollant temperature when some of the heat flowed away from the problem areas.

Thermal runaway if you wish is underway. The coolant system can only absorb what it has access to in the way of heat. Plus the rate and speed of absorption is designed around known factors. Thats why he did not boil. The excess heat was present just not able to tranfer to the exchange points fast enough.

I also move for DOA...

If you caught it quick and saw the oil pressure dropping on the guage and the light on you could have shut it down and coasted to the side. But since you ran it until it seized its a boat anchor.

:grim:

What was it? You don't list the year/model in your tag line.

-Jim

Before you start throwing dirt on the coffin.....check for a pulse after it cools down!
Get the oil level back up and check oil cooler and oil cooler lines for leaks.
Remove the glow plugs or injectors and shoot some transmission fluid (yes the red stuff) into the combustion chambers and let it soak the pistons and rings (overnight). Then try bumping the engine with the starter until it loosens up and spins over without compression. Once it turns freely put glow plugs or injectors back in and try starting/turning her with full compression on a fully charged battery. There may be some heavy smoke as she burns off the stuff you poured in there.......and listen for unusual bearing noise or piston slap. It may be salvageable...........
Good Luck

Like he said, crank it over with the glow plugs removed. Definately want to do this with the glow plugs removed. It will make an awful mess, but it sounds like it is already a mess in there. If you put the plugs back in and then crank you run the risk of the engine using the ATF as fuel and running away...

-Jim

Yep......crank it through with no compression so any excess comes out the plug holes. I should have added that you risk "hydraulic" damage to the pistons and rods if put the glow plugs back in immediatly after pouring ATF in the cylinders.......it should not take much to lube those rings and loosen any coking that accured around the piston from the friction/heat

won't help melted or spun bearings though.

Ignore the panic pussies. Find the oil leak and turn it over by hand. Check oil, compression test. Don't ASSUME.

The engine not turning is not an assumption.

I'm not sure about your baby, but it doesn't sound good about your engine.

Yeah if the starter won't turn it thats probably a bad sign. Wouldn't call that an assumption.;)

at best, you free the pistons and your head is warped or cracked (over heating)

at worst, you get it free and have a bad knock and need a new engine.


If it isnt your DD (hopefully not) you will have a fun project.

While im saddened by this, i also think it might be a fun project:D


Yea, i'm lame pshhhh whatev

I would try what was suggested about pouring a little tranny fluid into the cylinders and see if you cant break it loose. However, I can't lie here and say everything will be alright because the symptoms you describe are not good.:eek: You could save you block since rings usually take up most of the damage, but your going to have to inspect it carefully after taking it apart if you still have problems. If you seized the engine it for sure that your crank and rods are shot.:(

This thread makes me feel so fortunate I caught it when the same thing happened to me. I watch the oil pressure like a hawk now. Oil cooler hoses seem to be a common failure point among 617s as they age.

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/216914-horrible-day-texas-road-trip-breakdown.html

Well they should be changed as they get old, I know they are a PITA. But if they fail your engine is shot. Their is no excuse to be running one of these around on 25 year old lines.

Aren't there one or two stories floating around about 616 and 617 engines surviving horrors like this?

Obviously if there's melted parts inside, it'll be an expensive or prohibitively pointless repair. But... if it did un-seize after it cooled... isn't there still a chance?

Someone mentioned something about newer braided stainless steel lines as replacements, but neve mentioned where to get those. Any ideas?

Yes, not a great one, but a chance! Bearings expand as they heat up and without oil, they take most of the damage.

The only ones I heard surviving were 616's. I have a 617.952 that's in boxes now that didn't survive. The bottom end surfers most of the damage. The top end OTH looked fine.

I replaced my lines shortly after getting my car just because I was so paranoid. We're replacing them on the '83SD within a couple months....also out of paranoia.

The top end of the engine probably survives because the bottom end dies so quickly....plus it has residual oil on it even if the flow stops for a few moments.

I had oil cooler lines made for my F100-617 swap at my local hydraulic shop. I plan to have a pair made for my 82 300SD soon, will post the parts list and cost when I do.
Jeff

Bottom line, car is a parts car now. Sorry to say.

The Latest News
 

Well....I got home from work and found her safely towed home with puddles of oil underneath. I looked at her for awhile and couldn't find any leaks. Went back in the house to find a flashlight...still no leaks...hmmm. I decided to check the dipstick for any chance there was still even a drop of oil left in her.

Woopsi............the dipstick was not down all the way. I've checked the oil about a hundred times...but I must have been careless and pushed it down a little sideways without looking a couple of days ago. As you all know the dipstick bottoms out if push it in sideways on the white part...about an inch from the actual seal. I considered the possibility of the engine pressure just pushing it out or something, but it seems to much of a coincidence that I just checked the oil two days ago. I am also somewhat surprised that ALL my oil could shoot out of my dipstick. I needed to add around 6 quarts. Does this mean I had a lot of blowby? The car only has 150,000 on it.

Sooo....I tried turning the engine by hand by the power steering pump. The belt is tight enough, but it still just slipped. I then tried starting the engine. It turned, but really slow, then I heard a screeching type metal rubbing sound. So I stopped all that and pulled the glow plugs. Still wouldn't start by hand. But this time it appeared to turn pretty fast (with a lot of diesel flying out of the glow plug holes. So I poured some ATF into it and let it sit.

Don't know if I'll get back at it till after the weekend. For those who missed it. It is (or was) a 82 300cd with 150,000 miles.

I sounds like something failed and caused a lot of crankcase pressure. I may be wrong, but I also can't see the engine spewing all the oil out the dipstick under normal circumstances. I think the crankcase should be under a slight vacuum. So I vote that you had a head gasket or some other failure that would allow enough crankcase pressure to blow out your dipstick (along with the oil).

If your engine has blowby then it will have a slight (minor) pressure in the crankcase....however, it should be easily vented through the breather tube on the valve cover.

In theory if the engine has a lot of blowby, and something plugged up the breather tube, it would have to let it out somewhere (dip-stick tube) and in turn could force all the oil up the tube....at least whatever is in the sump...seems hard to believe it would lose 6qts that way.....perhaps over time it could.

You're sure it doesn't have a broken/cut oil line somewhere?

I used to think that I lost a lot of oil on my engine from blowby/burn-off, but after I sealed my turbo return tube and replaced the oil pan gasket, I went from needing 1QT every 1500 miles or so....to barely 3/4 of a quart every 4000 miles (every oil change cycle)...so appearantly most of my oil loss was from leaking.

How could you miss a leak that massive? Look at your cooler lines.

now wait a minute... DIESEL squirted out the glow plug holes? liquid or mist? in other words, was it just the spray from the injectors, or did fluid pour out the holes?

I was in the car when cranking it without the glow plugs. All I could see from there was a big mist cloud, which I am assuming was coming out of the glow plug holes. I think this is normal?

No...I'm not 100% sure the oil came out of the dip stick. All I can say is that from the spray pattern over the engine it looked to be coming from there. The dip stick was up and I couldn't find any other leaks so far. I filled it back up with oil and haven't seen any major leaks so far (although I only cranked it for a short time). It has always leaked some oil, as most of these cars do.

I looked under the hood a couple days before the incident, where I checked the oil level. I then drove about 30 miles before this problem.

The dipstick tube ends well above the oil level in the sump, so all that should come out of that tube if pressurized, would be crankcase air unless overfilled and/or foaming. This can happen from a lift pump failure in some engines allowing the crankcase to fill with diesel fuel, but in my experience the engine will then run on the diesel fuel and oil foam getting into the combustion chamber (even with the key off).

Still Praying
 

Well with a full battery my car seems very close to starting but just doesnt have enough. I will have to wait for my battery to charge up again and try again. I think she is cranking at about half the speed it normally does. I know its getting fuel because I saw the mist coming out of the glow plug holes when I had them removed. I also verified the glow plugs, so I guess it just up to the crank speed / compresion now. Any other tips out there?

Also, after I added oil and made sure the dipstick was down I haven't seen any come out. Granted I have only been able to crank the engine and not run it, but still. Everyone seems to have the opinion that it cound't have come from my dipstick. So where did it come out in a spraying upward pattern?

If it doesn't start after the next battery charge, I'll start comprssion checking. Can anyone tell how much psi I need on each cylinder for a start?

Thanks for everyones help!

You might consider doing the compression check instead of the "will it start this time" check. Also, from my experience with Chevies a wet vs. dry compression test would tell you a lot. Basically do a comp. check and then squirt a shot of oil into each cylinder and do another one then compare the numbers. The oil will seal the rings a little better so if the compression improves markedly with the oil shot you have a ring-to-cylinder seal issue.
If driven without proper cooling the pistons expand and the friction increases to the point that the engine seizes. A cooldown will usually result in the engine cranking but irreversible damage has likely occurred to the pistons and cylinder walls due to scuffing and the "set" has been taken out of the rings due to heat. In addition, the loss of oil would compound this in a turbo model because of the oil jets for the pistons.
I could tell a long story about my Dad driving his motorhome (454 Chevy) without coolant. It locked up and cooled down 3 times but only restarted twice. :(
Not saying this is what happened to you but it's something to consider.

The original engine in my 300D had the same symptoms, slow cranking and almost wanting to start. A compression test revealed low pressures with only slight improvement when "wet". It sprayed mist with the gp's removed as well.
Needless to say when I tore into the bottom end, all the crank and rod bearings were ruined and the cylinder walls exhibited noticeable wear.

Okay 1st cylinder 350psi went to 400 with some oil. 2nd 375 went to 400 when wet. What should this be for a 82 300cd? Put the glow plug back in and she seemed sooooo close to starting but just seems like it cant get enough speed even with several cylinders firing. Still cranking awfully slow.

Should I still check the other cylinders for compression? Or start thinking about a rebuild? By the symptoms I described, does a rebuild even sound doable, or should I start looking for a new engine?

Any theories yet on how the oil originally came out?

With that kind of compression it's remotely possible you might get by with new bearings. 330 lbs of compression is good on these engines.
Did your crankcase vent tube become blocked somehow? If it did, it's possible (quite a reach) that the shut off diaphragm slowly activated and that's why the engine came to a stop. There is at least one other instance on this board of oil mysteriously coming out the dipstick tube.
I'm not sure that 2 quarts of oil is enough to keep the engine lubricated for very long.

I'd check compression on all the cylinders, maybe only a couple sustained damage, but that would still require rebuilding the engine.

I really wonder where all that oil could have come from....

Conclusion? Anybody know

chances are he either spun the bearings or scored the cylinder walls. Ever seen what connecting rods look like when run with no oil? they turn black (Pitch black) from the heat, and the cylinder walls get alluminum rubbed off from the pistons onto the walls. you may be lucky, who knows.