pushed in cylinder sleeve, how long till another blown head gasket? - Page 5 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

t walgamuth · #61 09-10-2010, 05:59 AM

So are the mb liners lipped? I don't remember a lip on the liner and thought there is a lip on the bottom of the cylinder. Fastlane pictures a lipped liner.

layback40 · #62 09-10-2010, 06:16 AM

No lip on liner, Tom.
The lip at the bottom of the bore you mention is to allow the liner to be pressed down the correct distance, if a liner that is too short is fitted & it was pushed down to the lip, it would look like a slipped liner.
This whole thing with liner slipping has got nothing to do with OM617 diesels, my guess is that some one who is making such an issue has had or knows some one with a petrol V8 landrover with the problem.

t walgamuth · #63 09-10-2010, 08:11 AM

Aha!

How did the OP's liner get low then?

Seems like you would have to work at it to get it that way.

layback40 · #64 09-10-2010, 08:25 AM

Tom,
I dont know about the OP's motor, it may have been a bad after market liner that was fitted. I thought they made the liners slightly over length so that when fitted you buzzed the block flat. I would want to look at the OP's block, especially to see if it still had the bottom ridge. Maybe some one ground the ridge off so they could push the liner down flush with the head & then went too far. Its always a worry when you know a motors been worked on but you dont have any of the details.

t walgamuth · #65 09-10-2010, 01:57 PM

It is quite small. I am not sure there is a lip at the bottom or not.

jsap · #66 09-10-2010, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by layback40

This thread appears to be going off at a tangent.

Cylinder liner slip is very uncommon on OM617's. The 2 examples mentioned on this forum have no history as to how they occurred, though both have knowledge of prior major motor work. It could be that incorrect assembly has occurred and not operational slip.

It is common on V8 petrol landrovers and has been reported on petrol Subaru's as well.

OM617's do not have alloy blocks with pressed in liners like has been mentioned as a possible cause of liner slipping.

The reason OM617's have liners replaced is that its much cheaper than re-boring and using over-sized pistons. According to the FSM the liner is to be replaced if it cannot be retrieved by re-boring & fitting over-sized pistons. They are designed to be re-bored.

The liners in an diesel OM617 are fitted with an appropriate interference fit so that they dont under normal operating conditions slip.

The liners are sufficiently thick so that they can be re-bored, unlike some other motors that have very thin liners and are prone to slip like the V8 landrover petrol motors mentioned.

It has been reported that the slipping in the landrover V8 petrol motor may have been contributed to by the motor suffering from severe "pinging". Diesel motors like an OM 617 dont "ping".

The lip top style of liners are common especially in some diesel motors that are designed to have liners replaced when motors are rebuilt instead of re-boring. This is not the case with the OM617. In some cases it is not appropriate to place shims under the lip as has been suggested as some of the motors with these removable liners require the liner to be fully down in the bore for other sealing & alignment reasons. There are stationary engines that have shim washers fitted to the top of the liner to insure flat and smooth block surface.

Unlike the landrover V8 petrol motor, the OM617 is not a motor that has come from the increased bore size of an earlier motor. There has been no reduction in liner thickness and so the original design has not been compromised by a significant reduction in liner thickness.

For some one to be making a "beat up" about poor design when they do not appear to even own a diesel Mercedes and are negative towards such ownership is a little inappropriate.

Maybe time to go back to a gasser or landrover forum.

Layback40, you won't talk to me anymore? I thought we were pals....

Uptight40 says this discussion has gone off tangent? He must work for Mercedes or the government, because the OP had problems with a slipped liner. He obviously replaced his enigne with a bad used engine, and he has since disappeared. Nonetheless, slipped liners are problems with Mercedes, though, as I've stated before, are less common than Land Rovers and Harleys. What is being discussed are possible solutions, one of which uptight claims he has thrown in a shim, but he will not substantiate his claim with any details.

Very few owners get their motors rebuilt. Such jobs typically go to engine recycling specialists through secondary markets. I'm glad to see PE's working down in that strata of the industry.

jsap · #67 09-10-2010, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by t walgamuth

So are the mb liners lipped? I don't remember a lip on the liner and thought there is a lip on the bottom of the cylinder. Fastlane pictures a lipped liner.

Indeed, fastlane does show a lipped liner for the 300D. Curious, because I've spoken to machinists who've done work on MB diesels who say that there is no lip, and lament that they should have been designed with lips.

It may be like the Land Rover case, where those opting to replace liners install lipped liners, but rather than top hatting, you bore out a bit of the cylinder wall for the lip to seat.

That would certainly be an improvement over the original design.

As for the stop at the bottom of the cylinder, my impression from speaking with machinists was that the stop was not a full lip, but rather just a small flange to keep liners from sliding further. For whatever reason, however, the liner isn't installed at the factory fully engaged onto the stop. This makes it possible for the liner to slip when the engine overheats, but prevents them from falling farther.

But, another machinist said there is no stop at all, and he says he's done dozens of MB engines.

Hopefully, there's better information than what I've heard. A picture sure would be worth a thousand words.

jsap · #68 09-10-2010, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Whiskeydan

If the 617 block has a stop lip at the bottom how does one push the sleeve out? Must be a very small edge to push against.

If there is a stop on the block, it's probably not full circle. Maybe a partial flange or a square knob. But no one so far can tell me for certain.

layback40 · #69 09-10-2010, 09:33 PM

jsap,
Nothing uptight here especially no one with all this so called knowledge about Mercedes & not even owning one.

Best that some go back to their bean counting or what ever they used to do.

If some one is stupid enough to overheat a OM617 to the stage that the rings grab on the bore enough to move the liner then they probably have more problems than just slipped liners.
Best if you have a harley or landrover you go and vent your spleen on their forums & stop bad mouthing cars that you appear to not own, have a poor opinion of & little knowledge of beyond a google search !!
It maybe useful to get your machinist friends to join the forum, we prefer to talk with the organ grinder & not the monkey.

jsap · #70 09-11-2010, 12:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by layback40

jsap,
Nothing uptight here especially no one with all this so called knowledge about Mercedes & not even owning one.

Best that some go back to their bean counting or what ever they used to do.

If some one is stupid enough to overheat a OM617 to the stage that the rings grab on the bore enough to move the liner then they probably have more problems than just slipped liners.
Best if you have a harley or landrover you go and vent your spleen on their forums & stop bad mouthing cars that you appear to not own, have a poor opinion of & little knowledge of beyond a google search !!
It maybe useful to get your machinist friends to join the forum, we prefer to talk with the organ grinder & not the monkey.

You make a lot of friends, Uptight40? Thank goodness I didn't have you for hired help. Quiet calculators are good to have, but I think you've got a slipped brain liner.

Can you tell me where you work? Because, it seems that you're defending something against a non-existent attacker, unless you work for a Mercedes stealer. You're awfully defensive, even though all I'm trying to do is see what jparker did, and what cost-effective solutions there might be. And you've teased us about this fairy tale shim. Is your PE license revocable if you divulge your backyard repair?

Re-read your posts a few pages back, and take it to your therapist. I'm afraid you're paranoid and schizophrenic, and you're scaring me. The great pacific divides us, but still give me the creeps.

layback40 · #71 09-11-2010, 01:27 AM

jsap,

Its not me that needs therapy.

These "fly by nighter's" appear in this forum making issue with some old thread, contributing very little to current threads & then vanish.

Maybe its time for you to find an important issue outside the virtual world.
You are very good at not saying anything about yourself. Probably because there is not much worth while or relevant to say.
Veil threats requesting my work place will not get an answer as I am on the other side of the world and own my work place.

The more you post the clearer it is that my BS smiley was in place.

Time for you to put up or go sit on your harley or landrover.

This is a Mercedes diesel forum where real people ask for help with real problems with their cars.
As I have said before, If you have or are having problems with your harley or landrover, best you go to a forum on them.

It might be time for me to ignore some one that just has a "bee in his bonnet" about something that is not a real issue. I believe the behavior I am seeing is know as "attention deficit disorder".

I still wait for you to provide some real details about your relevant experience with diesel Mercedes and any formal training you may have.
Your comments so far are not what some one with detailed training in machine design would make.

To put it in an Australian manner, you are being asked to "put up or shut up!!"

jsap · #72 09-11-2010, 01:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by layback40

jsap,

Its not me that needs therapy.

These "fly by nighter's" appear in this forum making issue with some old thread, contributing very little to current threads & then vanish.

Maybe its time for you to find an important issue outside the virtual world.
You are very good at not saying anything about yourself. Probably because there is not much worth while or relevant to say.
Veil threats requesting my work place will not get an answer as I am on the other side of the world and own my work place.

The more you post the clearer it is that my BS smiley was in place.

Time for you to put up or go sit on your harley or landrover.

This is a Mercedes diesel forum where real people ask for help with real problems with their cars.
As I have said before, If you have or are having problems with your harley or landrover, best you go to a forum on them.

It might be time for me to ignore some one that just has a "bee in his bonnet" about something that is not a real issue. I believe the behavior I am seeing is know as "attention deficit disorder".

I still wait for you to provide some real details about your relevant experience with diesel Mercedes and any formal training you may have.
Your comments so far are not what some one with detailed training in machine design would make.

To put it in an Australian manner, you are being asked to "put up or shut up!!"

As much as I'm afraid to respond to you any further, because you are clearly deranged, I have to set the record straight.

1. I asked how the OP fared with his dropped cylinder liner.

2. You suggested a shim in the combustion chamber, on top of the liner.

3. I replied that that's probably not a good idea, as the shim may disintegrate and fall into the chamber.

4. You replied that I can't be right if I'm not a PE, and said that you have a shim in your own engine, and asked for my qualification.

5. I gave you my qualifications, and asked for details about your shim design.

6. You mocked me.

7. I mocked you back.

Now, let's get things straight here. If you were in the auto repair business, whether as a stealer, mechanic, or auto machinist, there is no way, in a first world county such services are licensed and regulated by law, that you would propose to a customer to install a shim inside the combustion chamber. The risk is too great for failure.

And, let's get things straight here that is a first world country, where PE licenses are governed, that a PE would design a shim inside the combustion chamber and walk away from liability in case of future damage due to the failure of said shim.

And, let's get things straight here that there is no one who is of their right mind who believes that a shim in the combustion chamber is a better repair than a complete liner replacement or block replacement, but YOU seem to have done it, and YOU are too embarrassed to describe exactly what you did.

I do hope that you will ignore this, because so far, all you've proposed is a hillbilly shim with a bucket load of piss on an innocent person who just wants to discuss slipped liner repair options, and I don't believe you'll actually have anything worth contributing.

But, before you ignore me, please do tell me where you work. I have family down under, and I would like to have someone visit your grease shop to verify that you are indeed a bottom-feeding diesel salvage yard forklift operator.

layback40 · #73 09-11-2010, 02:12 AM

jsap,

Your comments about third world countries are insulting and inappropriate.

Your name calling is inappropriate.

You have not given any details of qualifications.

Your suggestion that you want some "friend or family" to come visit me is nothing short of a threat.
I have no interest in having some unknown visit us. For all we know they could be a felon or members of some gang.

I own my own very successful biz in Northern Victoria.

I do not own a grease shop or wreaking yard & I dont have a forklift license.

Your comments sound like we have another vance or eric . Many of the good members on here will know who I am talking about.

As I have suggested previously, if you wish to debate/discuss sleeve slip, best go to a forum on petrol V8 landrovers or harleys. They both suffer from it & there is probably a wealth of information there for you.

jsap · #74 09-11-2010, 03:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by layback40

jsap,

Your comments about third world countries are insulting and inappropriate.

Your name calling is inappropriate.

You have not given any details of qualifications.

Your suggestion that you want some "friend or family" to come visit me is nothing short of a threat.
I have no interest in having some unknown visit us. For all we know they could be a felon or members of some gang.

I own my own very successful biz in Northern Victoria.

I do not own a grease shop or wreaking yard & I dont have a forklift license.

Your comments sound like we have another vance or eric . Many of the good members on here will know who I am talking about.

As I have suggested previously, if you wish to debate/discuss sleeve slip, best go to a forum on petrol V8 landrovers or harleys. They both suffer from it & there is probably a wealth of information there for you.

Uptight40, do pots call kettles black in Australia? Do PE's have any dignity or liability for giving bogus advice in Australia?

The OP asked about slipped liners on a Mercedes diesel. Are you just blind?

I don't give threats. I have family in Australia, and let's just say that they are thugs if you consider diplomats thugs. Maybe you would. Given how you are incapable of seeing yourself in the mirror, all psychoses diagnoses are currently open.

Can you, if you are at all capable, address any technical merits of shims in the combustion chamber? Can you, if you are in a licensed auto or PE-related business, suggest shims in the combustion chamber without worry of liability? Can you stop with the schizophrenic outrage, and simply address the ridiculous suggestion that you made of putting shims in a combustion chamber?

Can you, at all, explain anything technical, rather than constantly dispensing this seemingly infinite piss? Can you?

I await eagerly to read what else comes out of your head. It's scary, but so predictable of your inferiority-complex-induced bottom-feeding kind.

Don't forget to answer my question of how many friends you make.

layback40 · #75 09-11-2010, 03:28 AM

Very sad to hear of your problems with your M119.98 , being a petrol motor with a cast alloy block, problems with it have little relevance to 617 or 603 motors.

The 2 motors that have sleeve problems mentioned on this thread have not been shown to be the result of sleeve slippage like have occured with landrover V8's.

I would agree that probably with an alloy block it would be best if the block was cast with the liners in place with suitable keys to prevent movement. This may prevent replacement of the liners though. Many feel that alloy blocks are throw away items any way.
Many would agree that alloy block motors, unlike 617's are not designed for longevity.

I take on board you expressed concern about my 50 year old stationary diesel motor that has spacer rings on top of the liners. In years to come when it has done another 10,000 hrs or so & is due for another rebuild, I will post a pic of the spacer rings on here if you are still about.