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  #1  
Old 05-16-2008, 12:41 AM
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IP installation and timing 617

Need some help as usual.
I have been reading many threads and diy's for a very simple question. I have read the MB shop manual and failed to find the answer. I need to know if you are to introduce the IP at TDC or at 24 deg. before TDC. After the third time using various methods of "drip/sec." and from 24 to 26 deg. BTDC, I have the same or worse results. Results: Painfully slow 84 126 Turbo car. Can't drive even to parts house. I have called to some of the mechanics on line who would not talk about the IP. Called local shops and got some theory but no one who will speak definitively. Those who did speak have lead me to try twice more with worse results. No, I won't tell you what I have done up till now. Why scramble the maze.

I have set the IP with the notches matched for #1 ready on each attempt. Fitted notched collar and introduced IP onto studs for adjustment.

I have tried various drip formulas and each time have this painfully slow 126.

I have read about tank filter etc.

I just need to know at what time to introduce the IP.

The answer must be so elemental. All I have read would lead one to introduce the IP at "begin of delivery" time. (24 deg.BTDC) Why do I have to ask about inrtoduction at TDC? Because the last two tries have the same poor result.

If someone with real experience and no theory could please inter the discussion I would be grateful and will answer your questions.

Thanks for all, LD

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  #2  
Old 05-16-2008, 01:14 AM
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I'm sure some "126' folks will reply, but I had a problem when i did my 616, I used 24 degrees BTDC but I didn't have 24 degrees before the "compression" stroke.

good night and good luck
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1985 Euro 240D 5 spd 140K
1979 240D 5 spd, 40K on engine rebuild
1994 Dodge/Cummins, 5 spd, 121K
1964 Allice Chalmers D15 tractor
2014 Kubota L3800 tractor
1964 VW bug

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  #3  
Old 05-16-2008, 01:27 AM
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Were you haveing problems with the care before you started retiming the Fuel Injection Pump? If so what were they?
And, as stevo said the #1 piston has to be comming up on the compression stroke at that 24 degrees or so BTDC.
How did you tell you were on the compression stroke?
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  #4  
Old 05-16-2008, 08:13 AM
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According to the subject of your post you installed the IP?
Why did you remove it?
What was your installation method?
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  #5  
Old 05-16-2008, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post

The answer must be so elemental. All I have read would lead one to introduce the IP at "begin of delivery" time. (24 deg.BTDC) Why do I have to ask about inrtoduction at TDC? Because the last two tries have the same poor result.

If someone with real experience and no theory could please inter the discussion I would be grateful and will answer your questions.

Thanks for all, LD
Drip timing for someone who's never done it is fraught with the possibility of huge errors.

Since you have an '84, you have the capability of using the electronic RIV method for setting the timing. It's a 10 minute procedure and you can get accuracy to about 1/2 degree. Either find a shop that has this tool or rent the tool from one of the members on the tool rental program. It's a costly tool and has a large deposit, but, it fixes all your problems in about 15 minutes.

Good luck.

Drip timing is old school if you can use the electronic method.
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  #6  
Old 05-16-2008, 10:09 AM
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You should be able to install the pump at 24 degrees BTDC (cam marks coming into alignment, lobs point upwards). If you dont have the electronic RIV tool and assuming you have the drip tube set up correctly, put a piece of hose on it and the other end into a cup of water. Disconnect the bango fitting on the inboard side of the IP (return fuel) and remove the small ball and spring (check valve). The idea is to blow gently through the IP (I have a banjo fitting with hose attached just for this operation). Rotate the engine slowly while blowing through the hose, and the bubbles will stop when its on. Adjust IP accordingly. This method is very accurate and straight forward epically if you can have a banjo fitting with hose attached on hand. Dont forget to UNattach the vacuum line on the IP too.
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1985 Euro 240D 5 spd 140K
1979 240D 5 spd, 40K on engine rebuild
1994 Dodge/Cummins, 5 spd, 121K
1964 Allice Chalmers D15 tractor
2014 Kubota L3800 tractor
1964 VW bug

"Lifes too short to drive a boring car"
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  #7  
Old 05-16-2008, 10:43 AM
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Are you sure that you are at 24 degrees BTDC on the compression stroke? 24 degrees BTDC on the exhaust stroke won't work very well.

If you install the IP with the marks aligned at 24 degrees BTDC on the compression stroke, the engine should run fairly well even if you do no further adjustment of the IP timing.
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  #8  
Old 05-16-2008, 11:06 AM
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Ip installation and timing 617

Is something wrong with the site now? I just sent a message to all who have answered but when I submitted it, I was asked to log in which I had already done. Sorry but all my thoughts may have gotten lost.
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  #9  
Old 05-16-2008, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel911 View Post
Were you haveing problems with the care before you started retiming the Fuel Injection Pump? If so what were they?
And, as stevo said the #1 piston has to be comming up on the compression stroke at that 24 degrees or so BTDC.
How did you tell you were on the compression stroke?
The reasons I ask the above questions is because if you were already having some problem before you touched the Fuel Injection Pump you may have thought retiming the pump would solve that problem.
Example: Often when people have a hard starting issue they go out and buy a new Glow Plug Realay and still have the same problem. Later they find out that the had some Glow Plugs that were no good. Why, because they did not take the time to find out what was wrong and made a guess "I think it is this". All solutions have to match the specific problem.
One of the things that is good about this Forum is that other people may have had the same problem that you are having and know how to fix it. This information can save you a lot of time, $$$, and get your car back on the road. But you have to "tell all" or you will be given the wrong advice.
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  #10  
Old 05-16-2008, 06:55 PM
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I think installing the IP on the "other" BTDC mark is a common mistake, I made it. As I remember, the engine did run but it was obvious something was way wrong
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1985 Euro 240D 5 spd 140K
1979 240D 5 spd, 40K on engine rebuild
1994 Dodge/Cummins, 5 spd, 121K
1964 Allice Chalmers D15 tractor
2014 Kubota L3800 tractor
1964 VW bug

"Lifes too short to drive a boring car"
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  #11  
Old 05-17-2008, 05:21 PM
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I have timed IPs wrong too. It is one of those jobs you don't want to rush yourself through. I find I am better off taking 5-10 min. break while I think over what you need to do before you starting on certain jobs saves a alot of time and trouble.
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  #12  
Old 05-18-2008, 01:29 AM
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Ip installation and timing 617

Thanks for all the suggestions and sorry my reply got lost. Not much time these days and the problem still reigns. 3000 rpm max with 4 psi from turbo.

Friday I talked with a MB mechanic who was kind enough to walk me through all possible problems he could think of. After some talk he wants me to disconnect the exhaust pipe to check if there is carbon backup in the muffler system and also to check the fuel tank screen filter.

We discussed degree BTDC, compression stroke position, drip method (by the book- 1 drop per second), setting the IP on the marks, introduction of IP at 24 degrees, and checking the throttle linkage. After passing on these he suggested to drop the exhaust pipe and to order the socket to remove the tank screen.

Today I dropped the exhaust pipe and have the same results. Now I start making new tools to deal with the IP fine tuning while engine running and a remote fuel tank with new prefilter.

I had time today to make and use the new IP adjustment tool but any rotation of the IP while engine running had no or little detectable change. Still 3000 rpm max with 4 psi from turbo.

Tomorrow I will hook up the new remote fuel tank with new prefilter to bypass the fuel tank screen.

For all that asked questions for how this got started: A year and a half ago I bought this car with blown engine and bought a long block without IP. Later I was able to buy the IP which was on the long block. There was a year’s time between getting the engine and the IP so I had already installed the original engine’s IP with the new long block. Now this was the first time for me to do a MB diesel engine exchange. For the IP install I had to take verbal instructions and get a drip tube with elevated fuel can and plug for the return fuel hose from the IP. This was all new and it did seem a little crazy hanging a can of fuel and ‘wrenching’ the IP back and forth to try for 1 drop per second from this hand made drip tube. Being warned not to mess with the IP or it could cost big $$$ and would have to be exported to someone’s BIG O bosch flow bench. And oh yeah, unscrew the # 1 pipe connection and remove compression spring and delivery valve and then reinstall the pipe connector with drip tube. Now I can see that getting involved with this was a little stressful especially if you throw in that it all took place in my brother’s garage 500 miles from home. Thankfully the car started with no problem but drove sluggishly from dead start. It would however get up to speed and was fine on the highway. I just thought it needed some throttle adjustments which I could do at home later. Clutter, you know clutter don’t you, got in my way and the car sat for a year and more until now. I had trailered the car home and let it sit. I have only just driven the car about 500 miles on the freeway and found low MPG-22 and a knocking from the engine. By this time I could hardly remember what I had done with the IP timing and that’s where I am today. Frankly just freaked that the knock and the IP may be linked to my initial engine exchange and that is how this got started.

After some time out to think, forget and much more than a few cups of coffee, I decided to re-install the original IP back onto the now running so-so engine. It is hard as hale while in the car.
Can you see the 13 mm mounting bolt at the back of IP? Know what I mean Vern? Just look down the pit between the filter can and the IP backplane. No? Get a bigger spotlight. Now where’s that 13 mm wrench? How bout a socket? No, a box wrench. No, that tilting head 13mm ratchet. No, get the liquid wrench. No, not the WD-40. the liquid wrench. GO GET THE LIQUID WRENCH!!! No, not that little aerosol cylinder, the liquid wrench. The two oxy-acetelyn cylinders!!! Oh well, just melted the vacuum control plastic connector.

Actually it gets easier after two or three times. Just don’t put the rear mounting bolt back till she runs like hale.

Will let you all know what happens with my new remote fuel tank test tomorrow. Hope is running thin and diesel seems much thicker these days.



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  #13  
Old 05-18-2008, 01:32 PM
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Did you connect the ALDA pressure line?
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  #14  
Old 05-18-2008, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carp View Post
Thankfully the car started with no problem but drove sluggishly from dead start. It would however get up to speed and was fine on the highway. I just thought it needed some throttle adjustments which I could do at home later.

Thanks for the explaination and my poor eyesight likes the big print.
I deleted everything from the quote and left the part that interested me.
From what I understand from what I read the above part of the quote is with the 1st pump you put on. So the first pump would at least get up to a good speed on the highway.
Is it correct that after you put on the 2nd pump and it sat for 1 year that you started to have more trouble. Resulting in trying to retime the pump several times.
If the knocking is a fuel knock it can be cause by timing issues both ignition and Camshaft, poor compression (possibly stuck piston rings) and injector problems.
The member who suggested checking the ADL is also a good one to check as it effects the fuel quanity. How about air leaks around the fuel inlet hoses.
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Last edited by Diesel911; 05-18-2008 at 07:29 PM.
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  #15  
Old 05-18-2008, 09:06 PM
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Ip installation and timing 617

Hello Diesel911

Thanks for staying with me on this. I just finished with the remote fuel tank in order to bypass the tank screen. Nothing different. Re-hooked tank supply lines for now.

I may have been unclear with the chronology of the events. When I exchanged the engine a year ago I had to use the IP from the stock engine. This is when the car started and drove sluggishly but up to speed even for freeway driving. After getting the car home on a trailer I let it sit for over a year only driving local. It had a worrisome mechanical knock so I just decided to wait for the opportunity of time to deal with the unknowns. Finally I decided the knock must be IP related or timing. Having decided the knock was not going to wash out the engine, I drove I-40 about 500 mi. hoping to seafoam the problem away. That’s when I checked the mileage at 22mpg. That’s about 1/5 of what I expected so now I think it must be a single cylinder problem and most likely with the #1 since that’s the pipe connection I had removed so long ago and now cannot remember the details back in my brothers shop. Now I just happened to read the Easley method and figure I missed up for removing the delivery valve for the drip ("...you will regret it...")

So now I have recently run seafoam with highway miles and the knock is still there and I am in doubt of what I may have done back when. I am reading and planning what to do. I decide to use the Easley method. It’s so easy right? Anyway I'm looking for the 1st sign of fuel in #1 with the fuel line off #1 and things are not right. Not enough fuel. I go back to the threads and others say not to use Easley's method. Now I take all the fuel lines off and sure enough fuel is geisering out the other 4 connectors and not in #1. Now the pendulum swings back to Easley and I think it was "regrettable" that I had removed the delivery valve back when.

With this in mind I decided to reinstall the IP which was originally on the used exchange engine and redress the IP timing. These are the order of events to date. Now the IP is the one which was originally on the engine present engine.

After all of this it occurred to me that this present IP was out of my hands for a little time. Could something like a change in external adjustments have been changed? WOT for example? It is a locknut with adjustable screw. Does anyone know how to set the WOT screw? Engine peaks at 3000 rpm at WOT.

Your comments are appreciated. Thanks, LD


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