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  #31  
Old 06-13-2008, 12:19 PM
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To answer the original question, the hybrids that get 28 mpg are a "second generation" vehicle featuring a larger gasoline engine combined with the battery, electric motor, and electronics of the earlier hybrids. These vehicles were developed to meet a demand from customers (meaning you and me and our friends and family). This demand was "I want a vehicle that says 'Look at me! I'm green' but goes faster that the tiny-engined Prius and Honda Civic hybrids." These customers prefer a car with more emphasis on horsepower than fuel efficiency. The new hybrids answer that demand.

In the US of A, hybrids tend to be less efficient because more of our driving (compared to Asia and Europe) is highway (freeway) driving, where the regeneration capabilities of the hybrid get less use.

Hybrids are less green than they appear to be because the manufacturing process for the battery is extremely dirty and much of it occurs outside of the USA where we have little or no control. Regardless of how long the hybrid battery lasts, eventually the car will need a new battery. By that time, most hybrids will be in the hands of second or third owners, who will have paid less for the car than it will cost to replace the battery. Few will do so and so most hybrids will end up junked when the battery dies. Hopefully they will be recycled so that the toxic metals in the battery do not enter the environment.

The money to design and build the Prius came from the millions of Americans and others around the world paying inflated prices for Toyota trucks, SUVs, and Lexi (Lexuses?). If diesels got the subsidies from their manufacturers that hybrids do, they would be more than cost competitive.

Jeremy

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  #32  
Old 06-13-2008, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by ForcedInduction View Post
Hybrids + Diesels, its a no brainer yet nobody will do it.
I suspect volkswagon might if their sales lag with time. They like most the auto manufactures make what seems to be the wrong choices for the times. Their most recent diesel when released in north america has substantially more power than it's previous models but less fuel milage again. Two thousand and four was also a reduction of milage for ten more claimed horsepower. That much aditional power is pretty well useless to us as speeding tickets impact our insurance rates too hard as well as the new ticket costs.

Driving really fast also negates somewhat the fuel savings as well. I really think with the increasing technology they should have kept the same horsepower or even slightly less and given us greater fuel economy. On that basis we might have purchased another new one already.

From my past experience I really believe about 70 mpg on the american gallon might have been a possiblity. Without thinning the car out so much it is hardly still a car. The volkwagon jetta is very strong as is in accident situations.

My wife fortunatly was driving ours when she totalled it. Hit a telephone post with the car upside down at speed about fifteen feet off the ground. There was not one piece of glass left intact and the only part you could salvage from the body was the front bumper.
Car went off the road and launched. The japanese car she now drives would have killed her in an identical accident. Of this I am pretty well positive. Same with most if not all american cars presently sold.

She was hurt in the jetta but the passenger cabin stayed intact. You could even still open and close what was left of three of the doors. The telephone post hit the door directly behind the drivers door. It would not open but the damage did not make it into the passenger compartment. . It was almost impossible to get my stuff out of the trunk. Took about an hour with large bars to pry metal around. Eventually got the front hood up to disconnect the battery. It would never close again. Impact distortion present almost everywhere. The car launched from it's side after going off the road. Probably cartwheeled during launch phase as quite a bit of glass was there. The rest around the base area of the pole about fifty feet away. The roof of a lot of current offerings would have collapsed as well when the car dropped down the pole upside down onto it's roof. The jetta got a few roof dents.

First we will evaluate the japanese products when they appear. I suspect they might be better fuel milage wise. Time will tell. If volkswagon is about the same will buy the jetta again. Simply to pay a little more to keep it running perhaps but that money may save your life. I really think it did hers.

Jettas are well known to have one tough body assembly. I just never knew how tough till then. I knew the body was warrantied for twelve years against rust. After the accident found a heavy layer of what looks like another metal over the steel. It is very thick not like a flash coating. Perhaps 1/16 of an inch or more.
The five year old toyota out in the driveway is developing some serious rust issues. They fixed some earlier ones under warranty once already. More problems appeared this winter. This alone negates the value of the japanese products to come in my rust belt area to some extent.
These are factors that indicate milage should not be gained at the expense of serious trade offs in my opinions. It is left up to the purchaser to make that determination.
I am not enthralled with the volkswagon company or product itself but other than It's out of touch planning it is the real leader or potential leader at this time in my opinion. If they only get there current power train revised again in the next couple of years .They are almost unbeatable then in my opinion. They have already incorporated the six speed manual transmission as standard equpment on the upcoming diesels.

Last edited by barry123400; 06-13-2008 at 01:34 PM.
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  #33  
Old 06-13-2008, 01:26 PM
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Yeah unfortunately most new cars seem to be getting more powerful but not more efficient. Power is nice but if the power is sufficient (I don't need much) I'd take more efficiency over more power any day.

Some articles have said that diesel vehicles will overtake and exceed hybrids in ownership within the next decade and that's in this country. In Europe about half of all new cars sold are diesels and hybrids constitute only about 1%. In recent history diesels have had only 1 small problem and that's NOx and particulate emissions. Now that this is solved I think diesels will take off in this country if they're advertised anything like the hybrids have been.
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  #34  
Old 06-13-2008, 02:18 PM
ForcedInduction
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Originally Posted by rrgrassi View Post
They also said the Tahoe can go from Dallas to Austin on a single tank of fuel.
It holds almost 40 gallons of fuel, I'd hope it could go that far!

Quote:
It's still not cost effective, you would have to pay a premium for both the diesel and hybrid.
Thats an old myth. Mercedes only charges $1000 more for the Bluetec as it does the E350. Get rid of the emission junk and that would be closer to $0.

Quote:
Diesel takes longer to start...so this might not work so well. Glow plugs and all.
Thats another myth. Modern Diesels start just as quickly as g@ssers and don't need their glowplugs 90% of the time, even when cold.

One of the main problems with modern parallel hybrids is the electric motor is actually the flywheel. That means driving on electric alone is like driving around using your starter motor, it has to expel energy to move all the engine internals and fight compression.
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  #35  
Old 06-13-2008, 02:23 PM
Craig
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I suspect the real cost of e-series diesels is significantly higher than gassers, I know that benz has decided to price them the same. That probably has more to do with marketing and trying to drive down the average fleet fuel mileage. I do think you will have to pay a premium for lower end diesels.
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  #36  
Old 06-13-2008, 02:31 PM
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Didn't VW preview a diesel hybrid at Geneva 2 months ago ?
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  #37  
Old 06-13-2008, 02:33 PM
Craig
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Originally Posted by AdvisorGuy View Post
Didn't VW preview a diesel hybrid at Geneva 2 months ago ?
I don't know; was it real or a concept car?
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  #38  
Old 06-13-2008, 02:38 PM
ForcedInduction
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Didn't VW preview a diesel hybrid at Geneva 2 months ago ?
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Originally Posted by Craig View Post
I don't know; was it real or a concept car?
They previewed a parallel hybrid 1.6L TD engine something like a decade and a half ago.
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  #39  
Old 06-13-2008, 02:40 PM
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seems like I remember a car that had a small diesel generator, batteries and 4 electric motors at the wheels. this seems like the way to go. then the two systems are seperated, you have the battery for operation and the small diesel to charge the batteries. it could run for hours after you park the car to get the charge back up. the genset wouldnt need to be large becuase the battery would do most of the work and the genset would just have to charge it over time, the over time could be much longer then the actual drive. it would not have unlimited range due to the genset size not providing enough to sustain the car, but it seems like the efficiency would be great. seems like I remember also reading somewhere that a diesel train engine gets 400MPG
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  #40  
Old 06-13-2008, 02:45 PM
ForcedInduction
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seems like I remember also reading somewhere that a diesel train engine gets 400MPG
Thats not physically possible. But considering that they can get 1mpg moving several million pounds of cargo, thats VERY good mpg.
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  #41  
Old 06-13-2008, 03:47 PM
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Originally Posted by AdvisorGuy View Post
Didn't VW preview a diesel hybrid at Geneva 2 months ago ?
Yes they did. But who knows whether it's gonna make it to our side of the pond. As has been said though, hybrid and diesel are both additional expenses over a standard gasoline model. Combine them both and the dealers might have a hard time turning a profit.
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  #42  
Old 06-13-2008, 03:55 PM
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Why are diesels a premium? Both are controlled with the same electronics and have the same components. Compression ratios have come down on the DI diesels, and gone up on the DI gassers. The only other thing thats different after that is oil cooling (pistons and external oil cooler). Again, gassers and diesels are starting to become basically the same.
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  #43  
Old 06-13-2008, 04:18 PM
ForcedInduction
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Why are diesels a premium?
Turbocharger, intercooler, high precision injectors, 25,000psi injection system and expensive exhaust filters and NOx scrubbers come to mind.
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  #44  
Old 06-13-2008, 05:01 PM
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Originally Posted by ForcedInduction View Post
Thats not physically possible. But considering that they can get 1mpg moving several million pounds of cargo, thats VERY good mpg.

yes its a little calculation the train guys like to throw out there its equivalent car miles and on certain downhill runs I think. but I think that detaching the electric motors from the engine is the way to go. run the motor at its best efficiency all the time and the MPG numbers have to skyrocket
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  #45  
Old 06-13-2008, 05:39 PM
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Originally Posted by ForcedInduction View Post
That was due to poor demand and high costs, not oil companies.

IF it were Only That simple!

However it aint!

Who do you think currently holds the Patents for the latest version of the EV1's batteries....?

You've guessed it....

TEXACO!

GM sold the Patents they had bought from the small American Co that made the EV1's batt and then sold same patents to Big-Oil!

Rather puts a whole new light on it doesnt it!

Check out the EV1's story on Wiki as well as that film about the whole EV1 program done by G.M. Its called, 'Who killed the electric car'...

Yup, GM suck--But we all know that, Thats why we have an M.B!

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