Sputtering
 

Ok gonna make this short and sweet. I have changed all the filters, havent done much else though. My 92 300D is sputtering on take off until about 2000 (about when the turbo kicks in) then it is smooth as can be. My mechanic said it could be injectors, but I wanted to get the forums take. Any thoughts?

How many Miles on the 602.962 ?
 

(Have you checked the timing chain wear?)

( Have you ever tried any injector cleaner,BG...Etc.

You can get new Monark Nozzles installed in your injector bodies from member C.Sean Watts for a VERY reasonable price.[Less than $30.00 each] .I would
send Sean the old injector bodies and let him "Shim" and "Pop Test" the new
installation for you.Then it's just put the "new" injectors in and go.

well unfortunately I need the car to get back and forth to work. Havent checked the timing chain, but I have ran countless amounts of diesel purge, b100, diesel kleen, sea foam, anything I could think of.

Got 202000 on the old girl. At 70, she is smooth as silk.

Do you have boost and a smoothly shifting trans at lower rpm's?

pop the hood and see if you have fuel depositing around your injectors. You might have a leaks at an injector(s) or the rubber fuel injector bypass hose(s).

I'll wager that it's a stretched timing chain, which is also retarding the injection pump timing. The pump timing advances with RPM, which would explain why it smooths out at 2000rpm or so. The early 90's 60x engines had a rash of bad chains... mine was about 8° stretched when I got it at 155kmi. Check the chain first (instructions are here - you need to pull the valve cover and fan+clutch), replace if stretched past the spec in that PDF doc.

The new chain will change IP timing so adjust IP timing afterwards. If the chain is within spec, then check IP timing, set to 14° ATDC. Pretty likely this will cure the problem. It also might not be a bad idea to tweak the ALDA a bit, assuming you have the square (not round) ALDA, if you have never done so.

:scholar:

Checked the fuel lines, no sign of leaks. I do have boost, but it doesnt really kick in til nearly 2K rpm. Transmission has always shifted rough. I have heard it could be a vacuum problem with that though. I had not thought about the timing chain, but that does make good sense. I am guessing it would be a good idea to get it changed anyway after 200k miles. I will check this and report back once i get it done. Thanks for all the info.

I've got the same issue with a 93 300d. Seems to only happen in the morning first start of the day and goes away within a mile or so. I've got just under 4 degrees of Timing chain stretch and need to get the new one in and reset timing. Hopefully that helps. When studdering it blows white smoke then clears when warm.

If it's low on power until the turbo 'kicks in' at 2000rpm, it sounds like you're low on fuel delivery off idle. You can help this by adjusting the ALDA, either via the setscrew up top, or adding a shim underneath, to richen the mixture slightly. If it starts smoking while leaving a stop, you know you've gone a bit too far. This will also affect tranny shifting, but check the vacuum lines first (and make sure there's no vacuum leaks elsewhere, which will also cause hard shifting).

:o

Is it adviseable to replace the cam sprocket along with the chain (and tensioner and ...) on 602s subject to premature chain elongation? Folks seem to not replace cam sprockets on 603s when rolling in a new chain.

Sixto
87 300D

<rant> ok, that stupid advertising pop-up has GOT to go! :mad: Like any of us are interested in a designer purse... better yet, the stupid ad doesn't re-direct properly! What's the deal? This just started today, AFAIK...</rant>

Sixto,

The sprocket doesn't need to be replaced, unless the teeth are worn, which is not usually the case. But it wouldn't hurt to replace it, especially with >200kmi. I don't think I've ever seen a failed 60x tensioner (yet), but it wouldn't hurt to replace that either. For the record, I did not replace either of those items on my cars... only the chain. I did use a new OE master link, with a press-fit center plate. The aftermarket links typically have a slip-fit center plate.

:euro:

Scroll to bottom of this window and on the left, set the pull down window to LOW graphics. No more pop ups.....

After changing the seals on my Volvo diesel Fuel Injection Pump I timed in incorrectly with retarded/late timing and got alot of billowy white smoke. The more I advanced it the less white smoke I had. From your description and the symptoms I had my guess is that you IP timing is slightly late. As the engine heats up the fuel burns better and the smoke goes away.

I just tried that. I'll see how it goes. Thanks for the tip!

Back to the white smoke... my '93 arrived in winter and coughed, sputtered, blew white smoke, and generally ran poorly at lower RPMs (but sometimes could cough at speed). Click here and here for some short videos of what it looked and sounded like.

Since the car was shipped from Alabama, I thought it might be non-winterized fuel, or old/bad fuel (it didn't smell good). That's when I found the chain was stretched and the IP timing was retarded (17° or 18° ATDC, I think). Adjusting the IP timing to spec helped a lot, but didn't cure it entirely. Replacing the chain, re-adjusting IP timing (it will change with the new chain), and fresh fuel cured it entirely. Hasn't sputtered since.

:balloon2:

The low graphics setting may not work. Seems some browsers are being hi-jacked recently....

Is it possible that Y31/1 & 2(?) are responsible for the surging?

One of my local mechanics said he cant change my timing chain because you have to have a special riveting tool? He referred me to the dealer. :(

Well, it's best done with the chain riveting tool. Any decent MB mechanic should have this though. Some people have carefully peened the chain links with a ball-peen hammer and a dolly, but I'd avoid that if possible. Photos of the riveting tool kit are at this link.

:nuke:

Is it possible to advance the timing to compensate for 4* of chain stretch. I'm thinking that would get rid of the sputtering by correcting the IP timing until I can get to the chain. Only sputters and smokes white until warm.

Yes. If your chain is only stretched 4°, you are at the limit allowed by the FSM, and the car will run decently well. You can adjust the IP timing to compensate, set the IP timing to 14° ATDC. This will help, if the current IP timing is retarded (16-18° ATDC). Just remember that if the chain is replaced later on, the IP timing MUST be re-adjusted after the new chain is rolled in.

:zorro:

Thanks gonna try and retime the IP. What would one pay to have that done at an indy,considering I don't have the drip tool. Is it possible to eyeball it by moving the pump towards the head like a cummins?

No drip tube is needed for the OM60x engines, there are tools which can be used to do this without opening any of the fuel lines. A good indy should be able to do this in less than 2 hours, so I'd say <$200 for labor as a rough estimate. It's possible to eyeball it, you remove the hex plug on the side of the IP, and look for the "tang" inside to be centered in the hole at 14° ATDC. The proper tools get the tang dead center so it's accurate, but you can probably get within a degree or two via the eyeball method (?).

In the photo below, the hex plug is on the left side, the tang should point at the hole on the left side when the crank is at 14° ATDC. I also posted a photo of the correct tool used to set IP timing. It's a huge time saver.

:ninja:

http://www.w124performance.com/image...r_removed3.jpg

http://www.w124performance.com/image...__RIV_tool.jpg

Gonna have the Indy do it in the morning. Got quoted 1 hour labor at $85 per hr. I will keep ya posted if the timing at 14 ATDC cures the sputtering and white smoke on startup. keeping my fingers crossed!

Wow, you actually found an honest mechanic! :D I can do this job on my cars in about an hour, but I think a lot of shops tend to "pad" estimates which is why I said anything under 2 hours would be reasonable. I didn't expect someone to actully give you an accurate estimate! $85 is great. Let us know how it goes...

:stuart:

What about getting the chain replaced? What would a reasonable estimate be? The local indy here quoted me roughly around $500 for parts and labor. The chain itself is about $170. Said the tensioner on the 602 had to be removed to do this.

Tensioner r&r is like 15 minutes.

Post #16 says your mechanic can't come up with the crimper.

Sixto
87 300D

Different one, there are 2 now. First one referred me to the dealer, the other said about $500. I am supposed to hear back from the dealer in the AM to see what they want to do it. That should be a good laugh. Or cry.

Book time is approx 2 hours for a 602/603 timing chain job. Realistic time is 3-4 hours, including re-timing the IP (which MUST be done afterwards!). Plus about $200 (dealer list price) for parts. $500 total for everything is within reason, IMO...

:1eye:

Thats what I was looking to hear. He did say it took about 4 hours start to finish. Since this is not something i am going to be able to do, just want to make sure I dont get raked through the coals having someone else do it. Dealer hasnt gotten back with me yet. That will be interesting.

So the indy talked me out of messing with the timing for now and thought that my leaking stop lever might be hanging up when the pump cools and is not fully releasing. Which would explain why it only does it in the morning when cold(65degrees). I'm gonna fix the oring and report back. Hey Biglex, got a leaky stop lever?

Nope, no leaky lever here.

Got a quote from the dealer today. They quoted me about $450 for labor, the part is about $170, so about $620 total. Thats high, but the indy is putting it over $500 too, so it may not be a bad idea to get it done at the dealer. The dealer was VERY insistant that whoever I have do it use the proper tools to do it right. He said he could not stress that enough.

Fixed the stop lever oring last night and seemed to idle better on cold start this morning, but did not eliminate the sputtering or white smoke entirely. I'd say it about 50% better. I'm thinking I might be losing fuel prime somewhere after the LP. More trouble shooting this weekend. I'll keep you posted on my findings.

No sputtering or smoke this morning.. Replacing the leaking oring on the stop lever seems to have cured it for me, must have been sticking halfway down on cold starts. Easy fix with gratifying results. Now if I can just raise my idle a little. Started another thread about that.

Took the plunge today. Dropped the benz off at the dealer to get the timing chain replaced. It is going to cost me, but at least it should be done right. I had every intention of having the indy do it, but he is busy til sometime next week, and right now, my car struggles to get going from a stop on an incline. How damn embarrassing!!!

Make sure they check & adjust the IP timing as part of the job, even it costs a little more...

:o

Well, the job is complete, and there is absolutely NO improvement whatsoever. I am disgusted. So what should be next in the troubleshooting line?

Sputtering chapter 2
 

well, My 92 300D has been sputtering on take off until about 2000 (about when the turbo kicks in) then it is smooth as can be. Well, after alot of discussion on the board and calling different mechanics, I decided to change the timing chain. So today was the big day. I took the car to the dealer and had the chain replaced. Guess what? Not a hint of improvement. Exact same symptoms. Piss poor acceleration til I get to about 2000 rpm. So now my question. What would the next step be? Should I go for the injectors. jerk the ALDA off, firebomb the car, what? Just for the record, filters are all good, and I see no leaks in the fuel system. ANY info would be helpful.

Take a video, that would helps us alot.

Though not an accepted method by everyone, I have used the diesel purge (glass jar, lines, etc.) first as a good cleaning method and now as a preventative measure. In fact, this weekend I will be performing the procedure on my '84 300D Turbo. The initial purging of my '87 300TD was successful and very noticeable as the procedure was done. That in itself made me believe it works. Probably not the whole answer to your situation and maybe it won't help but at least it is something to consider. If you have not done it in the past, search and you will find the procedure clearly outlined, step-by-step.
Best,
Steve

1) Do you mean the car still coughs & sputters, or that it's just slow off the line?

2) Are you sure they checked & adjusted the IP timing after the timing chain was installed?

3) If it's just slow, but not sputtering, that's the injection pump calibration. Adjusting the ALDA should help tremendously.

:batman:

I used enough purge a while back to clean the barnacles off a pier. No real improvement.

I would love to post a video, and I can record videos, but the damn camera records in some kinda jacked up format that I have no idea how to use on my computer. It is a sony handycam dvd if ya got any suggestions.

please help!!!
 

ok i am making one last ditch effort for some opinions on what could be my problem, well, my cars problem. It would take a book to list my problems. Anyway, here we go.

SLOW! the sputtering I have been experiencing has just progressively gotten worse. I had the timing chain replaced and the timing adjusted at the dealership. No change. NONE. The filters are all good. Tonight, i was going up a SLIGHT incline, VERY slight. 2 degrees maybe. I stepped on the gas from a dead stop, and there was almost NO response. i damn near idled to the top. When it gets to about 2K rpm, then I am good, before that, i may as well push. PLEASE, any thoughts on what to do to fix this? I am leaving my car with the mechanic all next week while I am gone for him to look at, but i would like some ideas first. Could it be clogged air intake, injectors, ALDA, ERG?

Thanks!

Is it the 92 or 96 that is having the problems?
To eliminate the chance that it is a fuel system related problem I would change both the plastic Primary Filter and the spin on Secondary Filter (if you think the old ones are OK save them for reuse). Next I would disconnect the hose at the Primary filter and run a longer hose to another container of clean diesel fuel (such as a 2 gallons spare gas container). Drive the car a few blocks.
If it runs OK like that you know that the fuel system from the primary filter on up to the injectors is OK. It also means you could be having a problem from the point the hose was disconnected back into the fuel tank (clogged Fuel Tank Strainer or Fuel Tank Vent).

It would also be helpful to know if when you are having the problem is the black smoke, white smoke or any unusual noises and so on.
Dose the transmission have the right amount of fluid in it.

from his other thread
 

1992 300D has been sputtering on take off until about 2000

"Biglex", send me your phone# in a PM.
I will call this week end to discuss your issue.

For test purposes - remove the ALDA entirely, and go for a test drive. Click here to see a pictorial on how to remove the ALDA (look at the "ALDA_removal" photos). Then let us know how the car drives.

Just to add a little something to it, when the engine gets hot, that seems to take away even more power. Almost an idle when stepping on it at a dead stop, as when it is cold, at least it moves a little more. Not sure about these cars, but that would lead me to an exhaust issue on some of my old gassers.

Please look at
 

your fuel thermostat.

MB# 601 070 02 82

#. 125 in the attached picture.

O-ring #. 149 is a common failure item.

If the O-ring fails = sucking air into the injection pump.
Some symptoms:
* Sputtering
* Poor performance
* Erratic idle
* Lack of power
* Stalling
* Difficult or impossible to start

To test this, you can join hoses #. 197 and #. 191 = bypass it, and take the car for a 1 - 3 mile drive.