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  #151  
Old 08-05-2008, 07:47 PM
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It's also worth noting that you're comparing actual measurements of global mean temperature with local temperature in Antarctica from sampled ice cores. I would not consider that an apple-to-apple comparison and I'd expect the latter to have much more variation.
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  #152  
Old 08-05-2008, 07:47 PM
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Yes, that is what I am saying.
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  #153  
Old 08-05-2008, 07:51 PM
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All of that data is based on ice cores.

Here is more from NOAA:
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/globalwarming/home.html
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  #154  
Old 08-05-2008, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by DieselAddict View Post
So again, I invite you to present some counter-evidence.
RichC/240Joe/DieselAddict, as I said before it would be a waste of everyone's time because there is no way anyone can change your mind.
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  #155  
Old 08-05-2008, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bgkast View Post
All of that data is based on ice cores.

Here is more from NOAA:
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/globalwarming/home.html
Thanks for the link which I have found informative. I have yet to find any contradiction to what I said. Instead I found this:
http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/paleo/globalwarming/what.html

Quote:
Greenhouse gases occur naturally in the Earth's atmosphere, but are also being added by human activities. This happens primarily through the burning of fossil fuels, such as coal, oil and natural gas, which releases carbon dioxide to the atmosphere. Over the past century, atmospheric carbon dioxide (as measured from ice cores) has increased due to human activities from 300 to 380 parts per million (ppm), and the average Earth temperature has increased approximately 0.7C (or about 1.3F).



Given what we know about the ability of greenhouse gases to warm the Earth's surface, it is reasonable to expect that as concentrations of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere rise above natural levels, the Earth's surface will become increasingly warm. Many scientists have now concluded that global warming can be explained by a human-caused enhancement of the greenhouse effect.

It is important to remember both that the greenhouse effect occurs naturally, and that it has been intensified by humankind's input of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere.
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  #156  
Old 08-05-2008, 08:49 PM
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Water vapor is the single largest greenhouse gas. It accounts for more than double the warming effect of CO2.

CO2 has been rising and falling in conjunction with global temperature long before Humans were around.

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  #157  
Old 08-06-2008, 12:58 PM
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Water vapor is the single largest greenhouse gas. It accounts for more than double the warming effect of CO2.

CO2 has been rising and falling in conjunction with global temperature long before Humans were around.
No dispute there. Water vapor has been more or less constant though while CO2 has been going up significantly since the industrial revolution. In fact IIRC CO2 is now higher than it has been in the last 600,000 years or so.
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  #158  
Old 08-06-2008, 04:57 PM
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Look at any site pushing GW and you will see "carbon" and "CO2" far more frequently than anything else.
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while CO2 has been going up significantly since the industrial revolution. In fact IIRC CO2 is now higher than it has been in the last 600,000 years or so.
Hmm.
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  #159  
Old 08-06-2008, 06:10 PM
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Hmm.
For the last time, yes it is widely accepted in the scientific community that increased CO2 is responsible for the recent warming, but of course that's not the only thing that has driven climate change over the course of Earth's history. I don't know how to explain that any more clearly for you to comprehend this simple fact.

Think of CO2 as your car's windows. If you let your car sit in the sun, the sun's radiation is not the only factor that determines the temperature inside your car. If you close all your windows it will obviously be hotter inside than if you leave them open. That's the same effect that increased CO2 has on Earth.
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  #160  
Old 08-06-2008, 10:03 PM
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While this chart shows increasing temperatures over the last 35 years (excluding the last 7 years). It's no different from the rise in temperatures in the early 1800's and the far larger increase in the early 1700's.

I wonder if they had any carbon offset programs back then?
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  #161  
Old 08-06-2008, 10:20 PM
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I wonder if they had any carbon offset programs back then?
No, but they did begin to put emissions devices on their mules.
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  #162  
Old 08-07-2008, 12:01 AM
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Originally Posted by mplafleur View Post
While this chart shows increasing temperatures over the last 35 years (excluding the last 7 years). It's no different from the rise in temperatures in the early 1800's and the far larger increase in the early 1700's.

I wonder if they had any carbon offset programs back then?
Wrong. The rise in temps in the early 1800's and early 1700's can easily be explained by increased solar radiation, as is shown in one of the graphs I already posted, and here it is again.



The same cannot be said of the rise in temps in the 2nd half of the 20th century. Increased CO2 is the only explanation.

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  #163  
Old 08-08-2008, 08:05 AM
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The same cannot be said of the rise in temps in the 2nd half of the 20th century. Increased CO2 is the only explanation.
But it doesn't explain it. CO2 only accounts for about 3.8% of greenhouse gasses and humans are responsible for about 3.4% of all CO2 emitted into the atmosphere annually.

CO2 absorbs energy in a narrow bandwidth and absorbs it logarithmically and at some point, adding more won't change anything.

If the pre-industrial age CO2 density was 280 ppm, the first half of it's heating effect was caused by 20 ppm. The second half by 260 ppm. Most writing say this accounts for a 1.5 deg C rise in average temperatures. At this rate we would need a density of 9000 ppm to double the heating effect, to add another 1.5 deg C.

I don't think we'll get there.
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  #164  
Old 08-08-2008, 01:35 PM
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But it doesn't explain it. CO2 only accounts for about 3.8% of greenhouse gasses and humans are responsible for about 3.4% of all CO2 emitted into the atmosphere annually.

CO2 absorbs energy in a narrow bandwidth and absorbs it logarithmically and at some point, adding more won't change anything.

If the pre-industrial age CO2 density was 280 ppm, the first half of it's heating effect was caused by 20 ppm. The second half by 260 ppm. Most writing say this accounts for a 1.5 deg C rise in average temperatures. At this rate we would need a density of 9000 ppm to double the heating effect, to add another 1.5 deg C.

I don't think we'll get there.
CO2 is the greenhouse gas increasing the most in concentration so even if its total percentage is relatively low, it matters. CO2 absorbs infrared radiation, the type that's reflected off the Earth's surface. That's why we're seeing the most warming at the surface, whereas the stratosphere is actually cooling. These observations fit the man-made global warming theory perfectly. I don't believe there's a point where adding more CO2 won't change anything, at least this point is not anywhere near the current concentration.

I don't know where you're pulling the numbers from in your last paragraph. From what I've read the average temp in this century is projected to rise up to 10F (if we do nothing) and 9000 ppm CO2 is definitely NOT required for that. 10F may not sound like much, but keep in mind this is the average temp which historically changes very slowly so this is a huge jump and the most worrying aspect is the temperature extremes that come along with such a drastic change in the average.
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  #165  
Old 08-09-2008, 04:51 AM
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We never got to a point where adding such a small amount of CO2 changed anything.
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