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  #61  
Old 07-13-2008, 01:11 PM
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I see that nobody except Hat even tried to answer my question. You guys who continue to argue against man-made GW are clueless. As for you Hat, you say no one really knows. Well FYI and AFAIK no computer model was ever able to explain the recent warming without considering man-made CO2. So while CO2 may not totally be the convict after a fair trial, it is the primary suspect and there are currently no others. As to global cooling, the only way that's gonna happen on a long-term basis is we have a supervolcano explode or if the sun goes into a long-term period of inactivity (both of which have happened in the past). But that doesn't in any way take away from the theory that humans are causing the current warming (at least the last 30 years if not more).

Quote:
Originally Posted by arcticathlon
NASA has now silently released corrected figures, and the changes are truly astounding. The warmest year on record is now 1934. 1998 (long trumpeted by the media as record-breaking) moves to second place. 1921 takes third. In fact, 5 of the 10 warmest years on record now all occur before World War II. Anthony Watts has put the new data in chart form, along with a more detailed summary of the events. "
It is completely irrelevant what the warmest year on record is (besides they're close). We also know it was warmer long before the industrial revolution. Again that by itself is completely irrelevant to proving or disproving man-made GW. What's relevant is the relationship between temperature, the Sun's activity, and CO2 level. All 3 over the last 30 years point to man-made GW.

What's with you guys who can't admit the possibility that man is affecting the environment? Are you so vain that you'd go home crying on your mamma's lap if you learned that you're polluting the environment? Well guess what, we all pollute with our mere existence, some more than others naturally.
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  #62  
Old 07-13-2008, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Section106 View Post
A car will never use more energy in its driving lifespan than was used to build it. That is a simple fact.
That's nothing but a blanket statement that's not necessarily true. Check out the article I posted a few pages ago.
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  #63  
Old 07-13-2008, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by DieselAddict View Post
I see that nobody except Hat even tried to answer my question. You guys who continue to argue against man-made GW are clueless. As for you Hat, you say no one really knows. Well FYI and AFAIK no computer model was ever able to explain the recent warming without considering man-made CO2. So while CO2 may not totally be the convict after a fair trial, it is the primary suspect and there are currently no others. As to global cooling, the only way that's gonna happen on a long-term basis is we have a supervolcano explode or if the sun goes into a long-term period of inactivity (both of which have happened in the past). But that doesn't in any way take away from the theory that humans are causing the current warming (at least the last 30 years if not more).


It is completely irrelevant what the warmest year on record is (besides they're close). We also know it was warmer long before the industrial revolution. Again that by itself is completely irrelevant to proving or disproving man-made GW. What's relevant is the relationship between temperature, the Sun's activity, and CO2 level. All 3 over the last 30 years point to man-made GW.

What's with you guys who can't admit the possibility that man is affecting the environment? Are you so vain that you'd go home crying on your mamma's lap if you learned that you're polluting the environment? Well guess what, we all pollute with our mere existence, some more than others naturally.

Actualy one of the studies I was reading contributed it to the sun, and a natural cycle of the suns radiation.

The climate on earth is always changing, its in a constant state of flux. So its always going to be getting warmer or cooler. Heck where I am sitting now used to be a coral reef around the equator long ago. One of the more interesting studies said that we are at the peak of global warming and will enter the global cooling, and possible ice age stage next. They used ice ages in the past, the tilt of the earth, the suns output, total ice sheet mass, etc to come to this conclusion.

As for Co2 being a major cause some scientists think so, but far more from what I have read don't agree. As said above one volcano can outdue mankind.

But what it really comes down to with the Co2 argument is our lack of data, and with any global warming argument. We simply don't have enough, we need like 1,000,000 years worth of data to even begin to know enough to chart out a good graph and predict whats happening next. Heck we only have temp readings from what the 1700's to now? Thats nothing, its like saying the day is going to be very hot because from 10:01 and .0000001 seconds to 10:01 and .0000002 because someone farted on the probe.

From the many very dry studies I have read the conclusion that I see is we are not sure. Its just an educated guess, and Al Gore's film is a bunch of bunk.

I certianly think its trendy know to agree that we are warming up the earth, like it was trendy in the 80's to save the rainforst, and in the 70's to be afraid of another ice age. Now we don't give a damn about the rainforst and are cutting it down to produce ethonal to prevent global warming. Really the public is a bunch of narrow minded nit wits who cannot think longer than 5 minutes ahead or behind.

I'm all for protecting the environment, but I am not for going off half cocked. A humans life on the global time line is so small its hard to comprehend, we have time, on a global scale we are not even ants, we are germs. From what I have seen in CT we have made huge strides to cleaning it up. LIS is cleaner now than it was 30 years ago, fish and animals that have been gone for 100 years are back in force. Rivers that used to give China's worse a run for there money are now crystal clear and full of healthy stocked and natural trout.
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Last edited by Hatterasguy; 07-14-2008 at 01:11 AM.
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  #64  
Old 07-13-2008, 06:48 PM
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Nicely said Hatterasguy !
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  #65  
Old 07-13-2008, 07:48 PM
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I offer direct studies and suggested readings to anyone who disbelieves global warming, and the man made effects on it, and all you can say is "if i bothered to read" and that blah blah blah....global warming is not true, man has no effect and Al Gore is an idiot talk. For one, i have read, studied and researched nearly every page my wife has. Where in the world do you get the numbers youre pulling out of your asses about how many years we need for studying. THAT obviously shows you have NOT read any of the papers i suggested. Which are held as almost golden word in the subject. Its easy to sit and deny what you dont know enough about, but it definitely shows your inexperience with it.
Go on believing global warming isnt real. and that man has no effect on it. I could care less about what you think, really. Facts speak more than just rambling.
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  #66  
Old 07-13-2008, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by DieselAddict View Post
that by itself is completely irrelevant to proving or disproving man-made GW.
Thats right, cherry pick what data you accept just like they always do to get the conclusion they want.

Quote:
I certainly think its trendy know to agree that we are warming up the earth, like it was trendy in the 80's to save the rainforst, and in the 70's to be afraid of another ice age. Know we don't give a damn about the rainforst and are cutting it down to produce ethanol to prevent global warming. Really the public is a bunch of narrow minded nit wits who cannot think longer than 5 minutes ahead or behind.
When was the last time you saw anything of the "Killer Asteroid(s)" everyone was so worried about that was supposed to destroy the planet?

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Originally Posted by retx View Post
Facts speak more than just rambling.
Exactly. When we get enough accurate facts we will be able to come to an accurate conclusion instead of manipulating some computer data and GUESSING the cause/outcome.
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  #67  
Old 07-14-2008, 01:22 AM
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Well frankly I lost interest in the issue and have other things to spend my time on. I had to sit through a God awfull boring science class that was a repeat of HS last semester and read some really boring crap from people with more degrees than I care to remember.

The only thing I got out of it is that we don't know WTF is going to happen, not that sure whats causing it, and really just don't know enough.

All it is, is extrapolated theory and people trying to string various bits of data together to come up with a conclusion. Throw on the names of a few Doctors from ivy league schools, with some impressive sounding titles and it really does sound quite serious.


Retx when they say its the hotest day/summer/year on record how far back does the record go? In this country it sure as a 240D is slow doesn't go back past the 17th century, because the Indians didn't track that stuff. Can we guess back further? Sure I can, and a Dr. from the Yale science department can.

Now how long has man been living on this earth?

Do the math, thats quite a few years of not having a clue what happend. Sure you can dig in the dirt and look at the rock and fossil records, but that only tells you so much. You can even take ice cores and sample the vapor trapped in them to get an idea of what was in the air. I have actualy done that, its pretty cool. And from all this you can put together really cool looking computer models of the earth, some of which look amazing on TV. But the thing about a computer model is they are well dumb, they can only output what you program in. They are just ment to illustrate the data to the uninformed. If you showed the average joe the raw data they would get bored to tears. And judging by how people jump on the fuel saver scam's bandwagon(take your pick, magnets, H out of H2O, free energy) do you really think the average persons understanding of science will enable them to look at the raw data and come to a conclusion of their own?

No so some scientist who wants to get grants puts together a cool model, throws it on the news, scares Joe 6 pack who took one year of science at a crappy HS, 20 years ago, because mr big shot Dr. from this big school must know what he is talking about, and bam you have a scare. Than the media starts to feed and you get the talking heads who are usualy pretty clueless going off half cocked about whoes at fualt. Currantly Bush is a ripe target, as Al Gore showed. Oil companies are nice easy targets, SUV's, because we have this weird self hate complex currantly. Then joe 6 pack talks about it around the water cooler, than the politicians get involved. most know better but they want to get elected so they jump on the bandwagon, and the scientist gets his research money. In the end, like just about everything in this world its about money. I mean really, what can the government do? Tighten regulations on a theory? Kill industry? Stop us from driving cars? No they will do whats easy, spend tax money. Not on usefull stuff that would say get us off of foreign oil, no on crap, like E85, and tax breaks for hybrids. But farmers make a ton of money off E85, and hybrids make money to, in the end its all about business. Its quite a complex self feeding cycle, some of those scientist's are cool guys though. I really prefer NOAA myself, and the Chiness that I have talked with are excellent.

Lastly I also get a chuckle when they start to panic about "sea level rise", um well the oceans have been rising and falling since long before we were here, and they will continue to do so long after we are dead and gone. That you can take to the bank. Actualy now that is a very interesting subject, because a few massive sea level shifts have happend in the not to distant past. IE the English Channel. Such massive changes have had a great affect on us in the past, and most likely will affect us in the future.

So thats my rant.
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Last edited by Hatterasguy; 07-14-2008 at 01:40 AM.
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  #68  
Old 07-14-2008, 09:13 AM
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It does not seem that Prius has had many battery problems as of yet. They have been making these for several years, and surely there are a few with well over 300K by now.

A friend of mine racked up 370,000 miles o a Nissan Sentra, and the motor still used no oil when an accident ended its career.

I imagine that it is possible that the engine is still racking up the miles.

Japanese cars are very durable. Go to Santo Domingo and you will see twenty-year old Datsun and Daihatsu taxis. Most of the 1960's Austins still on the road there have Toyota engines.
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  #69  
Old 07-14-2008, 09:15 AM
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Go to Cuba and you will see mostly 50's Chevys with Lada engines.

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,23028370-5012441,00.html
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  #70  
Old 07-14-2008, 11:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Eldridge View Post
It does not seem that Prius has had many battery problems as of yet. They have been making these for several years, and surely there are a few with well over 300K by now.
what's the lifespan of a battery? is it miles? no, it's years... give it the full 8 to 10... then lets count problems!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Eldridge View Post
A friend of mine racked up 370,000 miles o a Nissan Sentra, and the motor still used no oil when an accident ended its career.

I imagine that it is possible that the engine is still racking up the miles.

Japanese cars are very durable. Go to Santo Domingo and you will see twenty-year old Datsun and Daihatsu taxis. Most of the 1960's Austins still on the road there have Toyota engines.
yeah, I just this morning went to my machine shop to check on the status of the 1.5L 93 toyota block condition. (I turned it in a few weeks ago for a refresh) the block needs only a honing (because I left it with the head off for 4 years...) the bore is still within factory specs! nearly 200K of hard driven miles and no measurable wear on the cylinders? wow.
I mean the clutch plate was worn through 4 of the 8 fingers, the transmission was totally worn out beyond repair and the head had 3 burned valves, but the block was in perfect condition... wow.
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  #71  
Old 07-14-2008, 11:13 AM
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what's the lifespan of a battery? is it miles? no, it's years... give it the full 8 to 10... then lets count problems!
Guess what? The Honda Insight was released in 1999 and the Toyota Prius was released to Japan in 1997 (2001 for the US) bringing them into your 8-10 year range.

The lifespan of a normal car battery is in years, in a perfect world they never see lower than a 75% discharge. Hybrids are different in that they are not simply for starting the engine and voltage leveling, they are constantly being charged and discharged all day long. So in the hybrid's case, mileage does matter to the battery.
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  #72  
Old 07-14-2008, 12:16 PM
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what type of battery do the hybrids use? wet or dry cell? a wet cell likes to be moderately discharged and charged often. the dry cells tend to like complete discharge before recharge. probably some type of gel cell with deep cycle design. the battery in the 8 to 10 year old vehicles has got to be in need of replacement. granted, it's a bundle of cells, that may have redundancy built in... probably have circuitry built in to the system to desulphate the batteries during charging... also, if the batteries were failing, the fuel powerplant would cover the issue...
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1987 190D 2.5Turbo
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1987 190D 2.5-5SPEED!!!

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  #73  
Old 07-14-2008, 12:31 PM
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All the hybrids from Honda, Toyota and Ford use Nickel-metal hydride batteries, GM's mild hybrid Silverado uses 3 normal car batteries and the Chevy Volt will use lithium-ion.
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  #74  
Old 07-14-2008, 01:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Hatterasguy View Post
Actualy one of the studies I was reading contributed it to the sun, and a natural cycle of the suns radiation.
But if you look at the Sun's radiation over the last 30 years, it has NOT increased (other than going through its regular 11-year cycle which is currently delayed). Yet the global mean temp has been going up. Don't you see how that alone could lead a totally reasonable person to connect the dots in a way to blame the rising CO2 which is a KNOWN heat trapper? Add to that the fact that our stratosphere is cooling (because more heat is being trapped at the surface) and you have an even stronger case. And the fact that going back more the 600,000 years we can see from ice core samples that CO2 and temps are closely linked adds further evidence. I guess none of this is really "proof" of man-made GW, but to dismiss all this evidence as nothing meaningful is extremely ignorant and dangerous IMO.
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  #75  
Old 07-14-2008, 02:02 PM
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I also wanted to add this from wikapedia. Not that you couldn't have found it on your own. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming

The average global air temperature near the Earth's surface increased 0.74 0.18 C (1.33 0.32 F) during the hundred years ending in 2005.[1] The Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) concludes "most of the observed increase in globally averaged temperatures since the mid-twentieth century is very likely due to the observed increase in anthropogenic (man-made) greenhouse gas concentrations"[1] via an enhanced greenhouse effect. Natural phenomena such as solar variation combined with volcanoes probably had a small warming effect from pre-industrial times to 1950 and a small cooling effect from 1950 onward.[2][3]


These basic conclusions have been endorsed by at least thirty scientific societies and academies of science,[4] including all of the national academies of science of the major industrialized countries.[5][6][7] While individual scientists have voiced disagreement with some findings of the IPCC,[8] the overwhelming majority of scientists working on climate change agree with the IPCC's main conclusions.[9][10]


Climate model projections summarized by the IPCC indicate that average global surface temperature will likely rise a further 1.1 to 6.4 C (2.0 to 11.5 F) during the twenty-first century.[1] This range of values results from the use of differing scenarios of future greenhouse gas emissions as well as models with differing climate sensitivity.



Although most studies focus on the period up to 2100, warming and sea level rise are expected to continue for more than a thousand years even if greenhouse gas levels are stabilized. The delay in reaching equilibrium is a result of the large heat capacity of the oceans.[1]




A PBS special accounted that the earths radiation from the sun rose after after 911 when all jets where grounded. They Explained that the exhaust from the planes is actually helping us from the damage we've done.



So now that I've expressed my opinions dose that mean some of you guys aren't going to help me with my car anymore?
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