My turn for 603 IP Delivery Valve death! Oh NO!!! - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

777funk · #1 07-26-2008, 10:25 PM

I just did the delivery valve o-ring job on my 603 and I've got 1 cylinder on the pump that is not delivering fuel. I've cranked about 5 or 6 groups of 20 second spurts at Wide Open Throttle and cylinders 2-6 have fuel but #1 is bone dry.

Not Good! I spent All day today removing the IP, replacing all the easier to access seals (including the delivery valve o-rings, bottom plate o-ring, side plate seal, back plate gasket, and lift pump gasket), then putting it all back together.

As far as the work on the delivery valves, I cleaned the top of the IP as clean as I could get it (Very clean) with the IP out of the engine. When I removed the valves there were little pieces of crud (very tiny) that were exposed inside the IP's delivery valve threads. I didn't notice any contamination falling into the holes. I put a new copper washer in and new o-ring. Torqued 22-22-26 ft.lbs and put the IP back in.

After seeing that #1 is not getting fuel after about 3 or 4 20 second cranks, I took the #1 valve back out to take a peek. I didn't see any contamination but I also didn't see ANY fuel in the #1 cylinder. I put the valve back in re-torqued and tried again; still no fuel.

Is there anything I can do or am I hosed?

thanks!
Nick

777funk · #2 07-26-2008, 10:55 PM

Notice the killed 602 in my signature! I'm really hoping this isn't a repeat situation for me. It really looks familiar. But this time it'll be my fault if I can't get it working. Oh man...

More to life than IP's and MB cars I guess but man my luck with 60x engines is NOT good!

777funk · #3 07-27-2008, 12:37 AM

Well, nothing conclusive but I filled the ip (under the delivery valve #1) with ATF. I put the valve back on and it sprayed out. It also sprayed out the other 5 valves. No idea what this means but hopefully I can get it to pump again. we'll see!

Edit: See my next couple posts. Still no fuel in #1.

Brian Carlton · #4 07-27-2008, 10:47 AM

There is a specific way to reinstall the delivery valve to ensure that it seats properly. Others have had similar issues when screwing around with those valves. They are tempermental beasts and don't tolerate any improper installation.

Keep bumping the thread.............maybe Dave or Sixto will see it and respond with the likely issue.

TMAllison · #5 07-27-2008, 12:02 PM

You didn't inadvertently forget to reinstall the oring on the valve holder right? That might result in loss of pressure......

Did you remove the valve element or collar below while changing the oring and crush washer? The collar has a specific alignment inside the pump body.

777funk · #6 07-27-2008, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TMAllison

You didn't inadvertently forget to reinstall the oring on the valve holder right? That might result in loss of pressure......

Did you remove the valve element or collar below while changing the oring and crush washer? The collar has a specific alignment inside the pump body.

I did get the o-ring on there.

I didn't remove the valve element. But I believe it may be working now. I need to connect the fuel lines to the injectors but here's what I did last night:
Took the valve back off, pulled out the spring and other stuff below the element with a magnet tool. Put it all back the same as it came out. Filled the #1 IP cylinder with Transmission fluid. Put it back together at the specified torque procedure 22 22 26 ft.lbs and fuel is coming out #1 now. I noticed that trans fluid (red) is also coming out the other 5 valves. Not sure if bleed over is normal or not???

But I will see if the car still runs.

Wish me luck! I'm praying and hoping it will. This is the about the most time I've ever spent working on a car and I hope to not have to do it twice

.

Dave (GSXR) has guided me through some of the process. He's the 124 man! Thanks to everyone on this forum for the past posts. It's always great to search through old threads. Great stuff here and a bunch of cool guys and a few gals (not many on our smoky, stout old diesel page). Reminds me of engineering school! Lots of fun, noise, smoke, and other cool stuff going on but not a woman in sight! I think my wife was happy about that when I was studying

. She trusts me 100%, but it helped that engineering college was about 99% men in my dept.

Anyways, hopefully I'll get this case cracked out soon. Wish me luck!

WINGAS · #7 07-28-2008, 12:00 PM

LUCK!

THe DV redo is tricky. I had Qtips with white grease, a magentic tipped machinsits' scribe, and it was like playing " Operation". Replaced the washers, springs and installed Viton o rings since the car sees B100 if I have a choice.

Worst case is to take the IP to a Bosch service place.

777funk · #8 07-28-2008, 09:59 PM

Well, crap! I tried to button it up today and no fuel out of #1. I tried the trans fluid trick again and it may have shot that out but that's it. No more diesel came from it. I took the following out (delivery Valve, Pressure spring, Copper Washer, Pressure Valve, and Pressure Valve Carrier) to see what I'd find. Below that is just the Barrel and Plunger. I cranked the engine over a few times by hand to see if the barrel would move up and down. It did and didn't look warped or anything wrong at all really except that it's not getting fuel. Anyone know what gives the barrel and plunger fuel? What would be causing #1 to not get fuel? I checked the fuel return (using a clear return to tank line) and it's bubble free.

I have seen a good amount of the ip's internal parts since doing all of this and re-sealing the side plate back plate and bottom plate. But I still don't understand where the individual barrel and plungers get there fuel. Anyone know. Anyone here ever worked for Bosch or torn down an IP or even ripped one apart for fun? Seems like there's got to be something obvious causing the #1 to not get fuel.

On a slightly brighter note, I picked up a beater 123 today for $500. It's got 240k and runs great. It's charcoal gray and seems to be a decent car for while the 124 is in limbo.

777funk · #9 07-29-2008, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 777funk

Well, crap! I tried to button it up today and no fuel out of #1. I tried the trans fluid trick again and it may have shot that out but that's it. No more diesel came from it. I took the following out (delivery Valve, Pressure spring, Copper Washer, Pressure Valve, and Pressure Valve Carrier) to see what I'd find. Below that is just the Barrel and Plunger. I cranked the engine over a few times by hand to see if the barrel would move up and down. It did and didn't look warped or anything wrong at all really except that it's not getting fuel. Anyone know what gives the barrel and plunger fuel? What would be causing #1 to not get fuel? I checked the fuel return (using a clear return to tank line) and it's bubble free.

I have seen a good amount of the ip's internal parts since doing all of this and re-sealing the side plate back plate and bottom plate. But I still don't understand where the individual barrel and plungers get there fuel. Anyone know. Anyone here ever worked for Bosch or torn down an IP or even ripped one apart for fun? Seems like there's got to be something obvious causing the #1 to not get fuel.

On a slightly brighter note, I picked up a beater 123 today for $500. It's got 240k and runs great. It's charcoal gray and seems to be a decent car for while the 124 is in limbo.

btt

... and I found a little more information when searching:
http://www.dieselpowermag.com/tech/dodge/0807dp_bosch_p_pump_diesel_fuel_injection/p7100_injection_pump.html

this article is about the Cummins P7100 IP but I'm sure it carries the same principle as our MB pumps.

But it says that there are two holes drilled in the top of each barrel that are exposed to the fuel gallery which is pressurized at 15-70psi letting fuel enter the barrel as the plunger is out of the holes way (the down stroke). So for some reason I'm guessing that either the holes are plugged or something else is going on since I physically saw inside the barrel as the plunger was on it's downstroke and NO fuel entered. Could it be that air has not fully evacuated the fuel gallery? I did change the side plate gasket on the IP as well. Maybe a bad seal there? The #1 IP element is the lowest point on the IP the way my car is currently parked. I'm just trying to rule out the different possibilities.

babymog · #10 07-29-2008, 09:12 AM

I'll go with what I'm used to in a different pump, perhaps it is the same with our M-series:
The pump is full of fuel, should be pressurized slightly by the lift pump. This fuel enters the barrels because they are immersed in fuel. If you poured fuel into the barrel and it mixed with the fuel in the rest of the pump, seems the ports in the barrel are open.

If the fuel pump isn't full of fuel or primed, it will not pump properly. #1 is the highest and the last to be purged.

777funk · #11 07-29-2008, 10:03 AM

Well, I found something that I did wrong... I haven't reversed it yet to see if that fixes the problem. But the Fuel return to tank Banjo fitting on the fuel filter housing is mixed up with the IP supply banjo fitting on the filter housing. Hopefully when I switch those to the proper port on the housing, problem solved. We'll see!

777funk · #12 07-29-2008, 10:45 AM

YES!!! Yay! Yay! Yay! As you can tell I'm a little happy that my car is a 6 cylinder again!

I feel a little dumb in that I confused the two banjo lines to and from the IP but hey!!! It works again!

Thank you M-shop members and thank God! As you can tell by my Avatar slogan, I believe in God.

But this has turned out to be a good thing. I'm glad the 603 is puring like a sewing machine again! Such a good feeling. Even the $800-1000 price of an IP rebuild wouldn't have been as bad as doing the job twice. This hasn't been my favorite job with the 603. I don't recommend anyone adjusting the IP timing. Just leave it. If you look at my earlier Block to IP o-ring oil leak thread you'll see why. Old seals are best left alone. Welp! I've learned this lesson! I'm just driving the car now. If it aint ALL the way broke, I AINT fixing it.

Now, lets see if my lope at idle is gone now that the IP o-rings have been changed. I'm SOOOOOOOO glad I didn't kill my IP.

babymog · #13 07-29-2008, 07:29 PM

Happy it's back.

nhdoc · #14 07-30-2008, 06:17 AM

If it makes you feel any better I had brought my '98 to a so-called professional tech when I first bought it to have a bunch of maintenance items done and one of the projects I asked them to do was replace all of the plastic fuel lines. When they tried to start the car it would not start. They ran the battery down (twice) trying.

I showed the shop owner the EPC diagram which showed the layout of the fuel lines and showed them that they had the two lines going into the lift pump reversed. He shouted "impossible" as they only replaced one at a time just to avoid such mistakes. I bet them that if they reversed those two lines that the engine would start - the bet was if it would start I would get a 25% discount on the work they had done (about a $800 tab). At first they said they would not do that because it could cause damage. I said I would take full responsibility and even reverse them myself which I did.

You don't have to ask what happened next, do you

Let's just say my bill was $200 less than it would have been.

It was the last time anyone other than me has been under the hood...that was nearly 4 years ago.

777funk · #15 07-30-2008, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nhdoc

If it makes you feel any better I had brought my '98 to a so-called professional tech when I first bought it to have a bunch of maintenance items done and one of the projects I asked them to do was replace all of the plastic fuel lines. When they tried to start the car it would not start. They ran the battery down (twice) trying.

I showed the shop owner the EPC diagram which showed the layout of the fuel lines and showed them that they had the two lines going into the lift pump reversed. He shouted "impossible" as they only replaced one at a time just to avoid such mistakes. I bet them that if they reversed those two lines that the engine would start - the bet was if it would start I would get a 25% discount on the work they had done (about a $800 tab). At first they said they would not do that because it could cause damage. I said I would take full responsibility and even reverse them myself which I did.

You don't have to ask what happened next, do you

Let's just say my bill was $200 less than it would have been.

It was the last time anyone other than me has been under the hood...that was nearly 4 years ago.

Ha ha! That's a good story and goes to show that the pros aren't always pros are they! Actually I was VERY afraid when I saw this happening because my first MB looked very similar. I had a 'professional' import shop change a leaky delivery valve o-ring and it took over a week. The guy said a day or two when I dropped it off and every time I called to check in, he said, we're waiting on a delivery of a part (o-ring?

). Anyways, he gave me this line for a week and finally I said what's going on. He said, your car just happened to break while it was here (as in "we didn't do it") and now it's missing on one cylinder. That sounded like rubbish to me and a cop out, so I said, well fix it or I'm not picking it up. He said, I'll charge you to keep it here and I'm not ****** with it and proceed to cus me. At that I said I'm taking this guy to court. I of course lost in small claims because his attorney seemed to know the judge and I went in alone. But when I saw this again I was not too happy. I thought I had messed it up myself this time. Thank God for the Manual and really I didn't even need that because I had read Brian Carlton's old post about the torque specs that pointed out the details on doing the job.

But it's done! It works and no leaks! And I took it for a spin last night, wow does it go. I don't think I screwed the ALDA on tight enough because it black smokes just like it did without the ALDA when I floor it. I'll need to fix that later.

I just bought a 123 this week so this thing seems like a rocket comparatively. And really I have no complaints against the power of a 617. But man the 603 is great when it's working well!