Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > Mercedes-Benz Tech Information and Support > Diesel Discussion

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 12-13-2008, 01:25 PM
Registered Loser
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: the great northwest
Posts: 257
Quote:
Lee, Do you have any idea why this cam would be different than the 617 turbo cam ?
nope. i would assume it's the same.

Quote:
This is a euro model correct?
yep

Quote:
it is non-turbo, correct?
nope. it's a turbo. 1985.

Quote:
post a picture of you manifold assembly that clearly shows the where each manifold meats the head in relation to the valves / cam
you're wondering if my exhaust/intake valves are in the same order as a standard 617? they've gotta be...from front, the manifolds go Exhaust, Intake, Intake...
I believe the only difference b/w a euro and domestic are that the euro has less emissions crud.

crud. i just remembered i've gotta take the SLS pump off and withdraw that funky chain rail holder, too. i hate that...

i was going to say: Regardless of the 'washer flip,' the point is to take the rockers and cam sprocket off, and then turn the camshaft to the right position and reassemble. but i guess if the washer goes back on in a way that doesn't point to the alignment mark at TDC, something is still very screwy. yeesh.

__________________
-lee
'83 300CDT (286k)

former proud owner of:
'85 mercedes euro 300TD
'80 mercedes 300TD
'77 mercedes 280e
'80 mercedes euro 250
'82 mercedes euro 250
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 12-13-2008, 01:54 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Lutz (Just north of Tampa) FL, USA
Posts: 327
Your cam is not aligned

I've gone back and re-read this thread for the umpteenth time and the reason it is so mysterious is that all of your timing marks are lined up and the pump seems to be timed correctly. The problem is the camshaft is in the wrong position which should be impossible. If you look at the picture in post 21 you will see the timing marks aligned and the first camshaft lobe pointing at the 3:00 position. In the picture of the non-running engine in post 26 the timing marks are lined up but the first lobe is at the 9:00 position or roughly exaclty opposite where it should be.

So either you have incorrect parts (cam or washer) or they are installed incorrectly some how. Is there some chance the camshaft and/or washer with the timing mark are not the ones that came off the engine? Or perhaps when you slid the sprocket on it pushed the key out (it's happened to me) and now the aligment of the sprocket and camshaft are arbitrary? I would take the sprocket off and inspect everything carefully to find out why it's not lining up correctly. My intuition tells me that once the sprocket and washer come off there will be something obvious going on.
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 12-13-2008, 02:14 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Lutz (Just north of Tampa) FL, USA
Posts: 327
You had it correct before

Check out the picture in post 24 of your previous thread- timing chain BIG UH-OH. The timing marks are lined up and the cam is in the correct position. Somehow in all of the work you did the relationship between the camshaft and the cam timing marks got goofed up. From what I understand you flipped the sprocket around because it appeared to be installed backwards. I've never tried to see what happens to the timing marks when flipping the sprocket around but it would seem that something in that operation is the source of your trouble.
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 12-13-2008, 02:15 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: central Texas
Posts: 17,281
This thread makes my brain hurt.
Feel free to ignore this next sentence... because I am using telepathy only.
There are 720 degrees of rotation in one cycle.
There ! I said it ! I feel better even if that does not peak any thoughts which help with the visualization.... but it might... there is something about all that has been described which points me to this concept.
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 12-13-2008, 02:40 PM
Registered Hack
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,642
the remaining issue is that there is no dependable reference to determine the cam timing.

Something is screwy with that washer that has the timing notch on it which should, under normal circumstances, tell Lee how to place the cam when he replaces the sprocket and chain.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 12-13-2008, 02:57 PM
Registered Hack
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,642
Lee, it looks like the woodruff key is perfectly in line with notch, correct? The notch is perfectly in line with the tip of the exhaust lobe on the first cylinder. That could be used as your timing notch. It will be very obvious if you are off one link on the chain while trying to match up the lobe to the mark on the cam tower. My previous directions still adhere, just use another reference.


or... just another assumption.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 12-13-2008, 04:32 PM
Registered Loser
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: the great northwest
Posts: 257
holy crap

Inspired by Mr. Danielson's post, i just braved the 40º rain and took the camshaft sprocket off. guess what? that #$%*&^! washer has TWO knotches in it!...like the drawing here:


i decided to gamble that i wouldn't have to turn the camshaft, so i went out and set the crank damper to TDC with the camshaft on pointing the right way (cylinder 1 intake lobe pointing at 3 o'clock).
i removed the tensioner spring, SLS pump, and plastic chain rail. i tapped the sprocket gently with a rubber mallet til it came off, and, while holding the chain to the sprocket with one hand, investigated the washer.
when i saw that second notch, i flipped it over and put it back on (still while holding the sprocket and chain). when i saw that the timing mark on the washer now lined up perfectly with the index mark, i put the sprocket (never separated from the chain) back onto the camshaft, in what seemed its 'natural' position.

at current, my crank damper reads TDC, my washer reads TDC, and the first (exhaust) lobe of cylinder 1 is at 3 o'clock (as in MPLafleur's photo (prior JC20 post)).

this certainly clears up some of the mystery, but the real mystery of my original POST remains.
in effect, i've flipped the washer, not corrected the IP timing.

questions:
1. did i do anything wrong/stupid when outside just now?
2. now what?
__________________
-lee
'83 300CDT (286k)

former proud owner of:
'85 mercedes euro 300TD
'80 mercedes 300TD
'77 mercedes 280e
'80 mercedes euro 250
'82 mercedes euro 250
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 12-13-2008, 05:01 PM
Registered Hack
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,642
ok lee, nice job.


Don't forget that there are 2 full rotations of the crank for every single turn of the cam and IP timing gear as Leathermang said.

it sounds like you have not corrected the relation of the cam to the IP yet.

Now that you have established the right marks for proper timing, you must set your engine to TDC after the beginning of delivery on the IP. Not TDC on the exhaust stroke.

Then match your cam to that stroke in the engine. Which would be: End of intake with exhaust impending on the #1 cylinder.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 12-13-2008, 05:21 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Blue Point, NY
Posts: 25,396
Quote:
Originally Posted by jt20 View Post
Which would be: End of intake with exhaust impending on the #1 cylinder.
Which would be:

Intake already closed for 90° of camshaft rotation........and exhaust nearly 90° degrees before opening.
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 12-13-2008, 05:26 PM
Registered Hack
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,642
while the mark on the tower matches the notch on the washer
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 12-13-2008, 06:02 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: central Texas
Posts: 17,281
OK... I don't think you meant it this way Jt20, but for others trying to learn four stroke theory from this thread.... ' end of intake with exhaust impending ' will really fry their brains... at the end of intake will be an upward stroke with both valves closed... the compression stroke...
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 12-13-2008, 06:18 PM
Registered Loser
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: the great northwest
Posts: 257
if i'm reading you correctly, you're saying that to be assured of doing this correctly, with my current lobe/washer situation (which looks just like MPLafleur's shot (re-posted below) and at TDC on my crank damper, i need to:

1) turn the engine over such that i can remove the rocker arms.
2) w/ rocker arms removed, rotate the engine until i once again see the lobe/washer situation in the photos below (so i know what i'm starting with).
3) then rotate the crank another 360º to the next TDC (which we assume will be the intake stroke for the engine, even though the cam sprocket and lobe position will be 180º different from the photo).
4) remove the cam sprocket.
5) rotate the cam (by hand) until it is in the position shown in the photo below.
6) put the sprocket back on, and reassemble everything.
7) reset all the valve clearances? (again?)
8) drive off into the sunset.


yes?

question: HOW is it POSSIBLE that i could've botched this and gotten it timed 180º out? is this fairly common/easy to do? i don't get it.
Attached Thumbnails
NO START after HEAD REBUILD and install...-attachment.jpg  
__________________
-lee
'83 300CDT (286k)

former proud owner of:
'85 mercedes euro 300TD
'80 mercedes 300TD
'77 mercedes 280e
'80 mercedes euro 250
'82 mercedes euro 250
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 12-13-2008, 06:23 PM
Astroman's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: PHX and SLC, Middle East, Asia
Posts: 302
Is it just me, or in the last picture is there like 1/4 inch of valve clearance?
__________________
'79 300D, Ivory "Gunther" ......going
'81 300SD, Metallic Blue Silver, The Grey Ghost.....going
'87 300D Turbo ...gone
'05 CDI.... gone
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 12-13-2008, 06:33 PM
Registered Hack
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,642
the rocker arms are removed^^^!
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 12-13-2008, 06:42 PM
Registered Hack
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,642
Lee, I can only go by what you say.

If all you did was take off the sprocket, flip the washer, then reinstall the sprocket and TDC on the crank matches up With TDC on the cam - then your timing is exactly 180* degrees out.

You must do whatever you feel most comfortable doing to turn the cam 180* without turning the crank and the IP timing gear.

you have two (reasonable) options: leave the rockers in, set lobes up, take out sprocket, turn crank 360* (not my favorite)

The other option:
remove the rockers,
set lobes down and crank to TDC,
remove sprocket,
turn cam to line up the mark with the washer notch,
put on sprocket and chain after arranging the sprocket so that its keyhole matches up with the key on the cam while the marks stay aligned.

__________________

Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:16 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2024 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page