IMHO the manual transmission, 4 cylinder 123 is, for it's time, the best car ever built. That's coming from someone with over 3/4 million miles of driving and maintaining them.

The difference between a manual 240D and turbo 300D is night and day both in the drivers seat and working under the hood. The turbe 300D is fun to drive if you like automatics, but is a B!+ch to work on relative to the manual 240D.

The only way that a turbo 300D could be more fun to drive would be with a stick. The only way a manual 240D could be easier to work on would be the addition of zippers.

My $0.02,

Ok , Larry...where would you put the zippers?

The one little nit I have with the 240D stick is the hydraulic clutch. I would just as soon have a clutch cable than have to deal with keeping those cylinders working and bled. Not that it happens all that often, but they are hard to get to...

Rick

__________________
80 300SD (129k mi) 82 240D stick (193k mi)77 240D auto - stick to be (153k mi) 85 380SL (145k mi) 89 BMW 535i 82 Diesel Rabbit Pickup (374k mi) 91 Jetta IDI Diesel (155k mi) 81 VW Rabbit Convertible Diesel 70 Triumph Spitfire Mk III (63kmi)66 Triumph TR4a IRS (90k mi)67 Ford F-100 (??)

Yeah, the clutch master cylinder can be a pain to service on these cars.
But then you have a Citroen DS in your signature - the ultimate in French mechanical complexity.

My 5-speed Euro TD is non-turbo, without the added plumbing and maintenance that goes with the turbocharger.
Over a two-year period, a friend bought and sold 2 turbo 300Ds and a CD, which admittedly had received spotty maintenance from their POs. All had problems with air-cleaner mounts & brackets, crankcase breather, and other turbo plumbing, resulting in a greasy, filthy mess and lots of extra rattles.

The non-turbo 5-speed 300D/TD, with manual windows & manual heat-AC is probably the best version of the W123 series and IMHO, with a stickshift, they don't need the turbo.
Unfortunately, due to Mercedes American marketing policy, they were forbidden fruit in the US, so when I found a decent one, that didn't require me to travel cross-coutry, I jumped on it.

Happy Motoring, Mark

__________________
DrDKW

Touche...but the Citroen at least has a cable clutch, even with all the funky hydraulics.

__________________
80 300SD (129k mi) 82 240D stick (193k mi)77 240D auto - stick to be (153k mi) 85 380SL (145k mi) 89 BMW 535i 82 Diesel Rabbit Pickup (374k mi) 91 Jetta IDI Diesel (155k mi) 81 VW Rabbit Convertible Diesel 70 Triumph Spitfire Mk III (63kmi)66 Triumph TR4a IRS (90k mi)67 Ford F-100 (??)

With the exception of the hydraulic clutch I'd agree that the manual 240D is simplicity itself. I regret having gotten rid of mine every day and one day I *will* have another. I'd say test that 240D stick, compare it to the "cream puff" and then make your choice between the two. But all thing's being equal the stick would be my choice. Especially for teaching a teen to drive. It is an absolutely uniqe vehicle with a huge coolness factor with those who appreciate engineering pinnacles.

- Peter.

__________________
2021 Chevrolet Spark
Formerly...
2000 GMC Sonoma
1981 240D 4spd stick. 347000 miles. Deceased Feb 14 2021
2002 Kia Rio. Worst crap on four wheels
1981 240D 4spd stick. 389000 miles.
1984 123 200
1979 116 280S
1972 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1971 108 280S

Cable clutch *sucks* . as in PERIOD. Hydraulic will give you plenty of warning before it goes.

I wish they made a powered hydraulic race clutch for these. click click click.

__________________
http://superturbodiesel.com/images/sig.04.10.jpg
1995 E420 Schwarz
1995 E300 Weiss
#1987 300D Sturmmachine
#1991 300D Nearly Perfect
#1994 E320 Cabriolet
#1995 E320 Touring
#1985 300D Sedan
OBK #42

My 300cd is a lux ride compared to the 59 vw. I'd go for the 240D for the mannny tranny. Driving slower cars really makes you drive, rather than steer.

__________________
95 E300D working out the kinks
77 300D, 227k, station car
83 300CD 370k, gone away
89 190E 2.6- 335k, no more
79 VW FI Bus- 145k miles, summer driver
59 VW Beetle ragtop- 175k miles
12 VW Jetta- 160k miles

Larry! good to hear from you. I hope you are well.

Tom W

__________________
[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC]

..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis.

I just did a google search because I am looking to buy a 240D myself and I have absolutely no clue what to look for in these cars. I don't know what a good sounding diesel is supposed to sound like, and my very limited experience is only in gasoline model cars.

Basically, I'm just married and very young with financial trouble. I want a car that will be reliable if I am willing to put the work into it myself. I'm very mechanically inclined, and certainly think I can work on one of these cars given the right tools.

I just wanted to say thank you guys so much for all of your posts. I read them all over word for word and enjoyed it immensely. I really hope to do a proper analysis of the car and make an informed decision about it.

Here is my situation in short. The guy wants $1500 for a 4spd 240D w/ 181K mi. It's the classic tan/yellow color, and obviously the exterior needs help. The interior and the motor seem(?) excellent though. To my surprise, the seats and so forth seem to be in some of the best condition I've seen a 240D (based on pictures alone). The guy says he has had to replace the water pump and radiator recently due to it being clogged (replaced water pump first thinking that was the problem and turned out not to be). I take his word for it, and it ran in the parking lot (not moving, he was working on getting a window up) for at least 1hr 30 minutes without any signs of trouble or problems at all. From what I can tell (which isn't much), the engine seemed quite smooth running with no unusual sounds/knocks. I did not know to check for blow-by, so I will check that next. And rust under the driver/passenger seats. What else do I need to be checking? I'll try and make a list of the things listed in previous threads, but it may be difficult for me to understand exactly what some of the terms mean.

The bad: Well, all good stories have a bad side. This car has significant signs of being setting for a while. It has large rust spots on it, and even a spot where the rust has caused a missing part of the car all together. The weatherstripping is in pretty bad shape, and rear window defrost doesn't appear to work. Here are some fairly well taken pictures of the car:

http://picasaweb.google.com/roadjake/Mercedes#

Do you think the car is worth $1500, and further I know it's going to require maintenance but do you suggest embarking on this adventure or should I try to go with something else? Like I said, I like getting my hands dirty and learning about cars has been such a great experience for me so far. Having said that, I don't really want to get a car that I can't even drive until I put another $3000 into it. Small, and well, even large things, don't really bother me. I just want a drivable car. Beyond that, I will of course do some not always necessary things in order to improve the car in general, but my main concern is having a second vehicle that is dependable (well.... sortof haha).

I am willing to put money into it in the future, and the whole power thing is a non-issue for me. I normally cruise at 55mph with people passing me with the finger out. Doesn't bother me, I'm getting excellent fuel efficiency and not risking getting a ticket. I enjoy taking my time .

At any rate, ANY suggestions would be most helpful. I have searched on this subject for so long I feel like my head is about to explode. I chose to start my search for a 240D/300D due to their renown reliability. Was I wise in doing that, and will this particular vehicle (considering I don't get unlucky) be the vehicle that I can get that reliability from?

Thanks so much for everything you guys have posted and I truly wish I could give something in return for your efforts. If there is anything I can do to repay you for assisting me with my decision to make it an informed one, PLEASE let me know as I feel compelled to return the favor in any way I can. Thanks again.

Kamel-

Wow- that's pretty rusty IMO, but each of us has his/her own tolerance for it.

As long as it isn't structural, you could drive it. Most of it looks to be on replaceable panels , so you could find a new trunk, fenders, hood as you get money to fix it.

But- if you are in financial trouble, this may not be the best thing for you.
These cars can be ultra-reliable, but you will be spending some short-term money to get them up to snuff. If you are committed to keeping this car for the long term (5 or 10 years) it may be worth it, but you may just be as well off with a used 10 year old Honda, Toyota or Saturn etc.

Rick

__________________
80 300SD (129k mi) 82 240D stick (193k mi)77 240D auto - stick to be (153k mi) 85 380SL (145k mi) 89 BMW 535i 82 Diesel Rabbit Pickup (374k mi) 91 Jetta IDI Diesel (155k mi) 81 VW Rabbit Convertible Diesel 70 Triumph Spitfire Mk III (63kmi)66 Triumph TR4a IRS (90k mi)67 Ford F-100 (??)

Rick,

Thanks so much for your response. It was very helpful. I really don't care about the rust. It's actually what makes the car appealing to me (well, the dry-rotted weatherstripping would definitely not be included in that). If it didn't have the rust, it would have been easily $2500-$3500 according to the prices I've seen (unless you guys know something I don't ). I don't mind driving a rusty car if it's mechanically fit. I would love to fix those parts down the road, and do see myself driving the car in 10 years. Maybe even letting my children drive it lol. I do not have such a desire to do so that I would spend thousands per year on the car. One day it would be quite awesome to restore it to its original beauty, but I would buy it on the assumption that I'm just getting a car to get from point A to point B reliably. I am ok with the repair here and there, and as I said before OK with the idea of doing the work myself. I just don't want to do what I've done with previous cars I've had (maybe it's my luck?) for instance:

1995 Chevy Lumina.
1 week after purchase replaced transmission $1,000
a few months later, replaced all the switches for doors (windows+locks), $480
replaced battery soon after $50
a couple of months later, replaced water pump $400
6 months after that, replaced head gasket $800
9 months later, spun a bearing

I realize old cars have their problems, but the prices of those repairs were just through the roof.

Well, anyway, sorry for the long post. I know no one can tell the future, I am just looking for a good reliable car and the class of the Mercedes along with the reliability it is known for are what have attracted me. As a bit of an anecdote, I haven't had much luck with those little Japanese cars either. Seems all the good ones have been bought out by kids who want to turn them into street racers, then try and turn them back after running them so hard and sell them saying it was a car driven by an old woman its whole life.

That's a lot of rust. True, much of it is on panels that could be replaced if you can find good ones either in a junk yard or maybe online? However I'd be concerned about rust that you can't see without a much more extensive inspection.

- Peter.

__________________
2021 Chevrolet Spark
Formerly...
2000 GMC Sonoma
1981 240D 4spd stick. 347000 miles. Deceased Feb 14 2021
2002 Kia Rio. Worst crap on four wheels
1981 240D 4spd stick. 389000 miles.
1984 123 200
1979 116 280S
1972 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1971 108 280S

Peter,

Do you have any suggestions about how I can inspect this car myself? I should be going to look at it again tomorrow. Are there any structural problem areas in the W123 body that I need to specifically check for rust?

Thanks so much for your advice guys, it has been most appreciated.

I've acquired a pair of rusty 240Ds in the past two years. The first, an '82 automatic with a cracked rear suspension arm (but with four new Michelins) for $225 + $60 towing. The second was an '81 4-speed that was driveable for $600. IMHO a rusty 240D isn't worth $1500.

Otherwise, there are some things you need to check when you're looking at one -

If the rust extends to the floors and inner sills so badly that it affects the seat mounts and seatbelt anchors, reject the car, or be prepared for major reconstruction. I had to fabricate heavy sheet-steel repair sections for both my 240Ds. On my stickshift car, the rust was so bad that the outboard lower-end of the seatbelt was attached only to carpeting!

Note that the thick undercoating can hide severe rust in the floors and unibody on these cars, so look under the front & rear carpets/floormats and press up the undercoat from underneath to find any soft spots.

Also, try to start the engine from dead-cold to see how readily it fires up. Then check the oil-pressure guage after it's completely warmed up. At idle, I prefer the minimum oil-pressure to stay above 1-bar or 15 psi (depending on the year/type of oil guage in the car) and the oil pressure reading should rise quickly to maximum once the car gets moving.

Judging from the prices you mentioned for the repairs on your Lumina, It sounds like that car was worked on at a shop. If you need to pay someone to work on an old Mercedes, the costs could get similarly ridiculous pretty fast.
In addition to the initial cost, I've put about $900 in parts into my automatic 240D. This included some optional improvements like installing some decent used seats and a righthand mirror. If I'd had to pay a shop, the cost could have easily exceeded 4 - 5 times that!

Happy Motoring, Mark

__________________
DrDKW

First and foremost I wanted to say that I hope I am not thread hijacking with my questions. I figured since they line up with the OP's concern directly that it would be most appropriate to post them here. If this should be posted in a new thread, please let me know and I'll act accordingly.

Thanks Mark for your input. It's been very valuable . After hearing the low prices you stated you got the cars for, I am thinking about walking on the deal and waiting for something cheaper or higher quality to come my way. Perhaps the rust is all just superficial (the interior actually seems well above average last I saw) and the body itself is in excellent condition along with the motor, having relatively low mileage, would that make this car worth the asking price in that case you think? I am not attached to this car/deal in any way mind you, I am just asking hypothetically. I am trying to figure out what a $1500 240D/300D is supposed to look like I suppose.

The owner had warned me about the engine being a hard starter in cold weather, and even suggested getting a block heater. Though I didn't experience this myself (basically, it went like this, we tried jumping the car for about 30 minutes-1hr with no results, then put his truck battery in the car and it started first try) it seems to be a concern. The guy seems nice about it and I believe he will let me even stop by where the car is (at his work) and inspect it without him being there. That's something I plan on trying out tomorrow morning. I believe I will from the very beginning just put my battery in it and see how it cranks with that battery. Not the best/newest of batteries, but it has absolutely more than adequate strength.

I forgot to check the oil pressure gauge, but if I get the chance to inspect in the morning I will let you know, along with a blow-by check.

Yes, those listed repair prices were from a shop. I did not have the expertise (and at the time didn't really want to since I had a good job haha) to do such big procedures on the car. Still, I would prefer not get a new car and have to instantly start taking the engine apart. A part of my desire to get an old car such as this is due to the ease of working on it myself. Even to change the battery in that Lumina, you had to remove a large amount of objects obstructing it.

Thanks again everyone for your tremendous response to my questions. It's truly a pleasant experience to go to forums that you don't have to feel like you are a bum asking for money when you ask for advice.