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  #16  
Old 12-29-2008, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawoSD View Post

I change my trans fluid/filter every year....its still going strong at 277k! I use synthetic Valvoline Dexron VI in it.

Rear diff I change every few years (probably 30-35k range) with Mobil 1 gear oil.

I am highly opposed to long intervals on fluids....
I am opposed to long intervals as well, and change oil every 5000 km; probably overdoing it but am happy to.

Where can I get the synthetic Valvoline Dex? I have looked at Schucks and Autzone but have not seen it. Time is not on my side when I am across the border, so please tell me a large chain that I can go directly to in WA state. Tx

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  #17  
Old 12-29-2008, 08:34 PM
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If you have a newer VW TDI or Mercedes CDI/Bluetec CDI, 20,000 miles can be achieved with oil analysis. But on older 617s, I would doubt you get close. But if you are going to try it, then I would suggest getting the oil analyzed every 5,000 miles by a reputable lab like:

Blackstone Labs

Polaris Labs

Oil Analyzers

AV Lubricants


An UOA report will tell you if you can go that far or not.


Link to What is Oil Analysis?




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Last edited by DeliveryValve; 12-30-2008 at 03:46 PM. Reason: Added more links
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  #18  
Old 12-29-2008, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shingleback View Post
I am opposed to long intervals as well, and change oil every 5000 km; probably overdoing it but am happy to.

Where can I get the synthetic Valvoline Dex? I have looked at Schucks and Autzone but have not seen it. Time is not on my side when I am across the border, so please tell me a large chain that I can go directly to in WA state. Tx
The only place that has it that I am aware of is Napa. Its "Valvoline Full Synthetic Dexron VI" about $5ish a quart.
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  #19  
Old 12-29-2008, 10:55 PM
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Originally Posted by alphadeltaromeo View Post
Completely agree with you on this. Amsoil or FS2500 kits are great. Typically the bypass filter system will filter 2 or so microns, so cleaning soot from oil will dramatically increase the longevity of the oil. I'd use real oil and not the synthetics personally...with the bypass system. I know gents that use the bypass systems on military vehicles with great success. Many OTR truckers use the bypass systems. The oil typically looks brand new even after thousands of miles.

See link: http://www.fs2500.com/ as an example

Andy
I am not promoting the Amsoil Bypass filter but you can buy your own Filter Mount/Base for the filter on Ebay as well as your own hose and brass fittings and save some money on what at kit would cost. I believe ForcedInduction has an old thread on his Amsoil installation.
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  #20  
Old 12-30-2008, 12:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pawoSD View Post
The only place that has it that I am aware of is Napa. Its "Valvoline Full Synthetic Dexron VI" about $5ish a quart.
Thank you; I know a Napa in Federal Way that I can call the next time I am going there.
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  #21  
Old 12-30-2008, 09:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel911 View Post
I am not promoting the Amsoil Bypass filter but you can buy your own Filter Mount/Base for the filter on Ebay as well as your own hose and brass fittings and save some money on what at kit would cost. I believe ForcedInduction has an old thread on his Amsoil installation.
Instead of spending $$ on an additional bypass filter, I just replace the OEM filter every 2500 miles and change the oil M1 5w40 TD or Rotella syn every 5000 miles.

I have not done an oil anaylsis, but when I look into the valve cover the cam shaft is shiny and bright (not just the wear surfaces, but the whole shaft) and I cannot see any scoring of the surface.
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  #22  
Old 12-30-2008, 09:53 AM
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Synthetic keeps them super clean, it pretty much polished the inside of our engines....after 10k the difference is amazing. I've been running synthetic for over 55k now....
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  #23  
Old 12-30-2008, 10:45 AM
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If you watch the vids on the fs2500 page you'll see that most of the engine wear occurs in the 4-7 micron range and the stock filters don't come close to filtering out the soot and other particles. The stock filters are doing practically nothing for engine wear/filtration...just the major particles.

The value of the bypass system is that it practically eliminates the particles that could cause issues. So with that said, it's not really changing the oil every 2-3k miles that is solving much...just that you're getting any of the crude that's in the oil and hasn't been filtered changed sooner. With the stock system, any of the soot/particles that are existent in the oil after it has been used a spell are still existent. I don't believe that a stock system is the best answer...even with extremely frequent fluid/filter changes.

I have zero problem with using the oil over a longer period of time. The principle that's important to realize is that the oil only needs changed as it becomes contaminated by foreign elements. This is really the only reason to change (unless the filter is rendered ineffective of course). I'd not change the oil if my oil analysis came back clean...that would be a waste I believe.
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  #24  
Old 12-30-2008, 02:22 PM
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Of COURSE the manufacturer is going to tell you their new super whamodyne whatever it is is saving your car. You think they're going to say something like "Use our filter, it filters out everything, of course that doesn't really matter but you should buy this filter anyway!"

Soot isn't a wear particle, its just carbon...
Remember these cars were known to go 500,000 miles with dino oil at 7500 mile intervals...

I read somewhere (I forget now) that right after an oil change MORE wear occurs and the old has to break in. Said the carbon chains in the oil buffered better once they'd been beaten around a bit by pressure and heat...
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  #25  
Old 12-30-2008, 02:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LUVMBDiesels View Post
Instead of spending $$ on an additional bypass filter, I just replace the OEM filter every 2500 miles and change the oil M1 5w40 TD or Rotella syn every 5000 miles.

I have not done an oil anaylsis, but when I look into the valve cover the cam shaft is shiny and bright (not just the wear surfaces, but the whole shaft) and I cannot see any scoring of the surface.
Unfortunately the full flow section of the Oil Filter allows some pretty big particles to pass through it. When you see a filter with a 20 Micron rating what they are most often saying is it is a Nominal 20 Micron Filter; meaning it filters out 50% of the 20 microns or larger particles on the 1st pass through the filter.

This is a previous thread concerning a Mann Oil filter for a 617. Notice the filters full flow sction filters 50% of the 27 Micron Particles (giving it a Nominal 27 Micron rating). I filters 99% of the 50 micron particles (giving it an Absolute Rating of 50 microns). To me this is not very good.
OEM Oil Filtration Efficiency 50%@27μ / 99%@50μ

Another note from the other Oil Filter Threads is that the companies that make the 617 filters most often do not know the Micron level that the bypass section of the Oil Filter filters down.

When I checked a whole bunch of Micron Nominal Micron ratings on a bunch of different oil filters I found that about 70% had 15-20 micron ratings while the rest had 20% had 21-25 micron ratings with the rest going as high as 30 microns.
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  #26  
Old 12-30-2008, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by curtludwig View Post
Soot isn't a wear particle, its just carbon...
Actually, it is. Its an abrasive.
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  #27  
Old 12-30-2008, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by ForcedInduction View Post
Actually, it is. Its an abrasive.
An amazingly mild one apparently... What it boils down to is does the increased expense offset enough wear to actually save you money? How many extra miles do you have to get for the filter to pay for itself?

MB says you can have up to 2% soot in your oil...
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  #28  
Old 12-30-2008, 02:57 PM
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An amazingly mild one apparently... What it boils down to is does the increased expense offset enough wear to actually save you money?
A base costs $15, each Amsoil filter costs $35 and hose and fittings adds about $20.

Thats very cheap to get rid of soot.
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  #29  
Old 12-30-2008, 03:39 PM
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"abrasive" is relative. An abrasive to one material is not to another, all depends on the relative hardness. I've specified different minerals such as talc/calcium-carbonate etc. in plastics to be used as friction modifiers and fillers to alter the properties of plastics, in bearings against aluminum (ex: 124 EC mirror mount bushing). The Moh's harness of Calcium Carbonate being lower/softer than that of the aluminum. Same applies to "abrasive" particles in engines.

So, is carbon harder than steel? Than zinc on bearings? Aluminum piston skirts? It can also be an abrasive in pumping (like in abrasive waterjet cutting) and wear aluminum surfaces such as the aluminum oil-piston squirters etc. Even small particles can wear these surfaces, not just those above 4u. The 4-7u number must apply to some engine somewhere, I doubt that it has been tested specifically in the OP's engine, a 617.

Lubrication and filtration is up to the owner. The stock engine is adequately lubricated using the stock dino oil that meets the specifications of the oil available at the time of the engine's design. To improve the oil (synthetic and premium oils) and improve the filtration are nice, if you want to go through the expense and hassle, but whether it is necessary is subjective.

As far as the OP and extended change intervals:

The AMSOIL rep is likely blowing smoke up your butt. True, AMSOIL sells some good products, and some mediocre. The 3000 line is the only one that my 190Dt actually consumed between changes, so I switched back to Mobil Delvac 1 and oil consumption stopped.

The AMSOIL rep likely feels (like many of them do) that their products are ALL superior to all others (not even close IMO) and in all applications. The reality is that there are superior engine oils (RedLine for example) and greases, etc. Further, some applications don't lend themselves well to extended drain or even bypass oil filtrations, such as a 616 that is driven frequent short trips hard, in a cold climate (this would create lots of condensation and blow-by fuel which needs heat to vaporize and leave the oil, bypass filtration cannot remove it, and the soot from a 616na running hard would be substantially higher than for example a highway-driven car or 60x turbo that burns much cleaner).

The way that your car runs, is driven, and is maintained makes more difference in extended-drain intervals than the oil used, and the filtration which is why I say the Amsoil rep is full of caca. He likely knows little about the 617 or how you drive it. Start with a baseline oil analysis, see if the soot loading is high at a normal change interval. If the soot is low, and all else looks good, you will likely be able to extend your change intervals. Further, if the engine is frequently driven on drives long enough to maintain high engine and oil temperatures, it will have less condensed moisture and fuel in it, again a plus for extended-drain intervals.

For me, although I use synthetic lubricants, I don't want to spend the time or money analyzing my oil, so I stick with normal factory drain intervals. The synthetic oils are better lubricants, will extend the life of the engine and in my experience also return better fuel mileage, also less loss of oil through vaporization/burning, and better wear (from past oil analysis), plus the benefit of cold oil that pumps well (living in a cold climate). Still, I don't recommend that everyone uses syn-oils, premium dino oils are adequate for many/most provided your vehicle manufacturer doesn't require synthetic oils.
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  #30  
Old 12-30-2008, 03:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curtludwig View Post
....

I read somewhere (I forget now) that right after an oil change MORE wear occurs and the old has to break in. Said the carbon chains in the oil buffered better once they'd been beaten around a bit by pressure and heat...
I lifted this from a known respected VW TDI Guru from TDIClub


Although this applies to specific long life TDI VW507 rated motor oil, I think the basic premise of the oil's life is the same of all motor oils with mileage adjustments:

Quote:
From Drivbiwire of TDIClub.com

You break down the oils life cycle like this:

Phase 1: Detergants attack the internals removing accumlated contaminants, neutralize acids and force those into suspenstion in the oil. This period of time lasts between 500-1000 miles

Phase 2: During the first 1000 miles the oils viscosity provides the majority of the wear protection by virtue of the film it creates on the surfaces. This phase generates relatively high wear rates but due to the short duration this is accepted due to the removal of contaminants that could result in long term damage to the motor. Wear rates in the period of time are generally speaking 5-10ppm per 1000 miles.

Phase 3: Detergents are now used up and the oil additives are forming their protective layers in the "extreme pressure" regions of the motor. Now the oil additives are working in conjunction with the oil film and the wear rates drop from 10ppm per 1000 miles to around 1-2ppm per 1000 miles.

Phase 4: Longterm peace! The oil is operating in a period of equilibrium, the wear additives are placed, Oil viscosity is in perfect range for the engine, Dispersants are continually working to prevent soot and other contaminants from accumulating on the surfaces and wear rates remain between 1-3ppm per 1000 miles.

Phase 5: Oil run out, the oil during this phase begins to increase in viscosity (or thin in some cases), Extreme pressure additives begin to lose effectiveness due to increased concentrations of wear particles (VW tests out to 8%, most oil changes never see in excess of 2% after 30,000 miles). This is when you begin to see a rise in the wear metal formation in the engine. Often wear metals during this phase rise to the 3-8ppm per 1000 mile range. Notice that the wear metals being generated are still LOWER than they were in the first 1000 miles?

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