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  #31  
Old 12-30-2008, 04:12 PM
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This would be useful if supported by data and research sources.

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  #32  
Old 12-30-2008, 04:47 PM
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Another reason a test of an Oil Sample after an Oil Change would show more particles in the test sample than if the sample was taken after the filter is used for several thousand miles.
As your filter is used and the passages in the Filter Media start getting full of particles it will filter out finer and finer particles.
Meaning that a new filter will pass more and larger particles through it than a used one will.
This is another reason a test of an Oil Sample after an Oil Change would show more particles in the test sample than if the sample was taken after the filter is used for several thousand miles

Next could be that the detergent in the new Oil purges the particles that had accumulated/sticking previously in the Engine increasing the particle load in the test sample.
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  #33  
Old 12-30-2008, 07:29 PM
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Well after seeing Brian's oil analysis reports for his 617, I'd have to say 5k-6k is about all you want to go. 617's dump a ton of soot in their oil and while you can use an oil like Amsoil that will probably be good for 10k+ miles, the soot level gets way to high to fast.

I'm using Amsoil now and I think I went about 6k miles on my last change. For a 603 thats nothing, they produce a lot less soot than the older engines. I could probably stretch it to 10k miles if I wanted, but I don't. My friend does his E300D once a year which works out to about 8k-10k miles. The lab says he can do this. After 8k miles in a 606 the oil is still cleaner than 5k miles in a 617.

IMHO the best oil to use for a 617 is that Rotella 5w40 fake synthetic stuff. It lets the engine crank over really fast in the winter, and its not that expensive; you get a good bang for your buck. Its not really ment for 10k+ mile changes but you can't do those with 617's anyway.

If you want to get the maximum life out of your oil you need to have it tested because everyones driving is different. But generaly if you have a 617/616 don't go over 5k miles, they make a lot of soot.
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  #34  
Old 12-30-2008, 08:55 PM
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Soot is just one of the elements in that is carried by the oil that needs filtering. The bypass systems do work, extremely well in fact. Many of the other elements are iron particles, water, glycol, etc.

If you want scientific/empirical data, then feel free to read the following report. You'll see clearly that the bypass systems perform well, demonstrating operational expense savings from less oil changes. There were thousands of oil samples reviewed by two different labs, so the results are quite valid indeed:

U.S. Department of Energy
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/avta/heavy_duty/oil_bypass/oil_bypass_reports.html

Good "highlights" on the report
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/avta/pdfs/oilbypass/oilbypass_poster.pdf

It's important to read facts and even though a particular vendor may say "this or that"...just because it's a vendor, doesn't mean they aren't living with integrity. Many don't...I agree, but many do and sell quality products that have demonstrated performance.

Andy
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  #35  
Old 12-30-2008, 09:19 PM
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It is funny. I do oil changes at least four times a year in the SDL and it might cost me $200 in oil and $64 in filters. I feel that this is cheap insurance against spending $4-5000 on a new OM603. I did oil changes more frequently in the 300SD filters every 1500 miles and Rotella Synthetic every 3000 miles. If you look at my engine at JohnHef's house it is clean and has no wear. It is out of the car due to the flex plate snapping not because of engine problems.

If you want to be cheap use dino oil and change it every 3000 miles. It is cheap and takes at themost 20 minutes for the old oil to finish dripping into your catch pan. Having the filter on top means you don't even have to get your hands dirty. I just do not see the basis for wanting to extend the life of oil to 8000, 9000, or 10000 miles. It is too cheap and expendable to worry about it. If you do not want to do it yourself, take YOUR oil and filter to Jiffylube and have them do it for you. Tell them that you want the empty bottles and the empty filter box put in the trunk so you know they used your oil and not 10w30 gasser oil...
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  #36  
Old 12-30-2008, 09:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LUVMBDiesels View Post
I just do not see the basis for wanting to extend the life of oil to 8000, 9000, or 10000 miles. It is too cheap and expendable to worry about it.
I think that the real point I'm making is that the stock filters don't really filter much at all. The reason why the bypass system extends the life of the oil is because it filters out 99% of the junk. This is the real value, filtering out the junk. With the stock system, you can change the oil every 2000 miles if you wish, but the junk will be in the system for those 2000 miles, as the stock filters don't filter it out.

So to sum it up:

1. Extended life of oil (great operational savings)
2. Excellent filtration = less engine wear = extended driving capability = $$

Andy
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  #37  
Old 12-31-2008, 12:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LUVMBDiesels View Post
It is funny. I do oil changes at least four times a year in the SDL and it might cost me $200 in oil and $64 in filters. I feel that this is cheap insurance against spending $4-5000 on a new OM603. I did oil changes more frequently in the 300SD filters every 1500 miles and Rotella Synthetic every 3000 miles. If you look at my engine at JohnHef's house it is clean and has no wear. It is out of the car due to the flex plate snapping not because of engine problems.

If you want to be cheap use dino oil and change it every 3000 miles. It is cheap and takes at themost 20 minutes for the old oil to finish dripping into your catch pan. Having the filter on top means you don't even have to get your hands dirty. I just do not see the basis for wanting to extend the life of oil to 8000, 9000, or 10000 miles. It is too cheap and expendable to worry about it. If you do not want to do it yourself, take YOUR oil and filter to Jiffylube and have them do it for you. Tell them that you want the empty bottles and the empty filter box put in the trunk so you know they used your oil and not 10w30 gasser oil...
The biggest interest in extending the mileage for Oil Changes comes from companies that have to make money off of their vehicles; often vehicles with many gallons of Oil in them.
They have to Pay their Mechanic to do the Oil Change and pay again to get rid of the oil and the old Oil Filter (the EPA wants to know where they go). So to them dumping the Oil and changing filters before they have to is a waste of money.
Even before the extended oil change idea caught on they were often users of Oil Analysis to detect Engine and Coolant leak problems before they destroyed Engines. They just use the same results to decide if they want to extend the Oil Change date.
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  #38  
Old 12-31-2008, 01:39 AM
ForcedInduction
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alphadeltaromeo View Post
as the stock filters don't filter it out.
Right. The bypass section of the stock filter is packed cotton. No matter how well you pack it will always have channels for the oil to flow though since its such a low flow. Aftermarket filters like Amsoil's are real filters, they give the oil no choice but to go through the media.

Since I use a quality bypass filter, I plugged the oil hole in the filter lid stem, use a full-flow filter in place of the combo filter and change it once a year with the oil.

http://www.napafilters.com/filterlookup/PartDetail.asp?Part=1385


Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel911 View Post
pay again to get rid of the oil and the old Oil Filter (the EPA wants to know where they go).
(At least in Colorado) used oil and filters are not hazardous waste. The shop I work at gives the oil to a recycling company and crushes, drains and tosses the filters in the dumpster. The only hazardous waste in our shop is the parts cleaning solution.

Last edited by ForcedInduction; 01-01-2009 at 03:38 AM.
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  #39  
Old 12-31-2008, 01:56 AM
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I like Amsoil, decent stuff, use them in our stuff exept motor oil for the d-max, it gets fuel diluted to fast and the nothin in the SD. The old 617 is to dirty to take any advantage of extended running and 15K is too much anyhow. BMW's are 15K factory approved but had too many apart and seen the evedence cuz alot of people go over the drain interval anyhow. The SD gets Mobil Delvac in it. I do run an FS-2500 bypass filter on my D-max and i love it! It does what it should, cleans the oil very well.
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  #40  
Old 12-31-2008, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diesel911 View Post
The biggest interest in extending the mileage for Oil Changes comes from companies that have to make money off of their vehicles; often vehicles with many gallons of Oil in them.
They have to Pay their Mechanic to do the Oil Change and pay again to get rid of the oil and the old Oil Filter (the EPA wants to know where they go). So to them dumping the Oil and changing filters before they have to is a waste of money.
Even before the extended oil change idea caught on they were often users of Oil Analysis to detect Engine and Coolant leak problems before they destroyed Engines. They just use the same results to decide if they want to extend the Oil Change date.

I agree that for OTR truckers and taxis extending the oil change interval is a must. For our cars, I just don't see it.

Forced, you do have a point about our cotton waste filters. I will have to look into getting a better filter, but not to extend the oil change interval.
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  #41  
Old 12-31-2008, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ForcedInduction View Post
Right. The bypass section of the stock filter is packed cotton. No matter how well you pack it will always have channels for the oil to flow though since its such a low flow. Aftermarket filters like Amsoil's are real filters, they give the oil no choice but to go through the media.

Since I use a quality bypass filter, I plugged the oil hole in the filer lid stem, use a full-flow filter in place of the combo filter and change it once a year with the oil.

http://www.napafilters.com/filterlookup/PartDetail.asp?Part=1385



(At least in Colorado) used oil and filters are not hazardous waste. The shop I work at gives the oil to a recycling company and crushes, drains and tosses the filters in the dumpster. The only hazardous waste in our shop is the parts cleaning solution.

Out here in CA at the last Mechanic job I worked (1989?) the Company had to pay to have the waste Oil pumped out of the tank and had to keep the paper work to show what happend to the waste Oil.
Just before I left they were required to buy an Oil Filter Crusher. Some Govt. Agency was making them do this.
It may be that CA is more picky.
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  #42  
Old 12-31-2008, 03:08 PM
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Ahh I didn't think of 61x engines when I was talking smack about the full flow filters. I take it back, on a 61x engine a full flow filter is probably a good idea as it will allow you to go with extended drain intervals. If I keep my 240D and fix its oil leaks I'll look into a filter this summer.
On a 60x engine I think its probably less worth it. I went back and checked, the longest duration I can find analysis for on my 190D is 10,835 miles and soot was 0.8% with all wear contaminants well within normal levels. Sure I could filter them out but I'm not thinking its worth the effort or expense. Yeah the filter setup is inexpensive but then I have to put new filters in regularly.

The guys who don't believe in extended duration changes generally don't drive that much, I'm doing nearly 2,000 miles a month. The ability to go 5 months between changes is really nice, plus I save money on filters and I don't have to get rid of all that extra oil which is good for the environment. I don't mind changing the oil but its not my favorite thing to be doing.

Which reminds me I need to go change the oil in my snowplow!
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  #43  
Old 12-31-2008, 03:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by curtludwig View Post
Ahh I didn't think of 61x engines when I was talking smack about the full flow filters. I take it back, on a 61x engine a full flow filter is probably a good idea as it will allow you to go with extended drain intervals. If I keep my 240D and fix its oil leaks I'll look into a filter this summer.
On a 60x engine I think its probably less worth it. I went back and checked, the longest duration I can find analysis for on my 190D is 10,835 miles and soot was 0.8% with all wear contaminants well within normal levels. Sure I could filter them out but I'm not thinking its worth the effort or expense. Yeah the filter setup is inexpensive but then I have to put new filters in regularly.

The guys who don't believe in extended duration changes generally don't drive that much, I'm doing nearly 2,000 miles a month. The ability to go 5 months between changes is really nice, plus I save money on filters and I don't have to get rid of all that extra oil which is good for the environment. I don't mind changing the oil but its not my favorite thing to be doing.

Which reminds me I need to go change the oil in my snowplow!
I was doing a 180 mile round trip commute five days a week in my 300SD so I know what you are talking about. I was changing the filter every two weeks and the oil once a month. In my 300SDL I have not had to drive it that hard. If I drive in I have to do 120 miles round trip but if I take the train my commute is only 20 miles.
I understand about oil changes being a drag, but I used the time to
a) get away from the wife , b) check out all the things that needed doing on the car, and c) get away from the wife...
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  #44  
Old 12-31-2008, 05:52 PM
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I actualy don't enjoy spending my time working on cars, I know hard to believe. So only having to change the oil couple of times a year is nice.

If I had something a bit newer than my car I would just change it once a year or 13k miles, whichever comes first.(per MB's latest service schedual) My friend does this with his E300D. Every fall he changes the oil, air filter, and fuel filters, ie a diesel "tune up". Works out to about 8k-10k miles. His car has more electronic controls on the IP so it burns cleaner and he can do it. I could probably do that with my 603 but I don't quite feel comfortable going that long without testing the oil.
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  #45  
Old 01-03-2009, 11:08 PM
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