Add air conditioning to W123?
 

How difficult would it be to add air conditioning to a factory non-A/C car? I am in Southern California so non-A/C can be pretty rough.

Are the holes still in the engine compartment to mount all the brackets and such? Obviously I'd have to add some dashboard components too. With auto climate control I can imagine that would be pretty complicated... or is the A/C system separate from that?

Thanks,
Carl

I would think this is cost prohibitive, and you'd be better off with an AC car, but since I don't know the ALL components necessary to make this work, my opinion is just based on loose knowledge.

You could find a car that same year as yours and transfer all the needed stuff. Dash removal is included in this. You may need to change wiring harneses as well. Also, you may have to add connections to the fuse panel, and you will have to add vacuum components.

If you can find a Euro car or a 240 of the same year, it would have manual controls.

It would be much easier to buy a car w/the climate control already installed and operational.

Certainly not worth my time with the complexity of such an undertaking.

However, If you are not overly concerned with a correct restoration/modification, I'm sure there are "generic" aftermarket A/C rigs that will work for this as I see them installed in custom rods ALL the time. Look here > http://www.vintageair.com/catalog.asp

I'll guess that you can find a decent driver that is already cooled for about the cost of installing into yours.

Anyone out there experienced with this either way?

Most cars have factory air, so I would just try to find one that had it stock. My 240D had an aftermarket AC system in it, it was a POS.

You could also get a swamp cooler like the VW guys do:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2185/...d9141781cd.jpg

Yeah my search is narrowed to Euro imports for various reasons (mostly manual trans) which makes the selection a lot smaller. But I agree, seems like it is more hassle than it is worth. Though I might look at an aftermarket unit, if it can be installed without mangling things.

You could always find a US car with a bad automatic in it and do a manual swap.

You may want to try www.iceac.com. They specialize in aftermarket ac kits for all the older german cars. Porsche, vw and mercedes. I believe they sell a kit specifically just for the 123.

Hi
I am currently fixing my Father-in Laws air condition on his 300D (euro Grey market). The A/C is after market and was added in the USA.The A/C is by no means as good as the factory but easy to work on. It uses a Sanden SD508 compressor. You can also remove the Evaporator with out removing the dash. Unfortunately i have no idea what kit was used. But i am sure their are kits out there.

Wish you had seen my giveaway thread. I had all the stuff posted for free, nobody wanted it so now it's in sun valley in a scrap heap.

I'd certainly go with a complete manual heat-AC system out of a 240D.
I got a complete manual heat-AC unit with control panel out of a '79 240D at the Virginia Beach Pick-N-Pull. It was only $12 (half-price day!) and someone had already pulled the dash, so all I had to do was unhook some wires and vacuum lines, and carry it out. Unlike most Asian vehicles, this W123 Mercedes unit doesn't look modular. Without inspecting a non-AC W123, I can't really tell if it's possible to install AC in one without exchanging the whole heat-AC unit, but it doesn't look like it.

Other considerations for adding AC are - will you need the York compressor, bracket & hose setup, as mounted on the upper right side of the engine on early W123 240D up to 1980,
or the Delco-Frigidare R4 compressor, bracket & hoses mounted low on the left-side of the engine, as used on later 240D and 300D/TD?
The York compressors are primitive and noisy, but the plumbing looks easier.
The Delco R4 compressor is smoother and more effcient, but they're not famous for durability, and the plumbing wraps around and under the engine.

ALso, will you be running R12 in the AC system, or updating/converting to R134a?

And don't forget the aux electric fan for the condenser.


Happy Motoring, Mark

dont see one for mercedes

Woahhhh! what the heck does that thing do??

It has a revolving screen/mat that is soaked with water (from an included pan); air from forward motion goes through the mat and evaporates the water, which takes energy out of the air, thus cooling it. Works great in desert heat and 5% humidity. Works less well as the humidity rises, hence the nickname "swamp cooler." Most such coolers require the user to pull a lever or otherwise move something to revolve the screen/mat and keep it soaked with water.

Obviously, the water needs to be replenished frequently – most such things are good for only an hour or two before the reservoir runs dry. OTOH, they are inexpensive and use no power from the car except for a slight reduction in fuel economy due to air resistance. I doubt that they are even made anymore due to the prevalence of a/c in most cars. The one in the photo looks like it dates from the 1950s. I may have owned one a few decades ago.

Jeremy

I think it was EZRIDER280 (?) that replaced his with all manual. Beautiful car also. It can be done.

Starting from scratch. go with the manual set up from a 240D. You do have to remove the dash to make it a whole lot easier.

Check the PNP`s these cars come in from time to time. we have a 78 and a 82 with manual set up. saw them yesteday, but someone broke some of the front controls. :(

I pulled one last yr. just be careful removing stuff. take pictures as you go. the front controls are fradual where they are attached to the main unit. there are two pipes that go through the firewall on the pass side, and one on the drivers side. DS hung me up and I bent it:mad:. be careful.
Don`t remember what I paid, maybe $60.00

also a good time to clean everything, especially the evaperator. gets full of all kinds of crap, dog hair etc....

I would use a parrell flow condensor, more efficient.

Go for it. Don`t let anyone talk you out of it.
Take pictures and post your progress.

Dave morisson has a good write up in the DIY section.

Charlie

swamp coolers just look cool hanging off an old VW

http://www.google.com/search?q=swamp+coolers&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&oe=UTF-8&startIndex=&startPage=1&rlz=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi&biw=1280&bih=863

They say they have them.Attachment 63833
Who designed their website? i can hardly read the text.

how does an AC system increase performance, effciency, and power?

Wow, that's pretty neat. I never knew that evaporative cooling was used in cars. I saw something like that in a junkyard a while back and I knew I should of grabbed it.. Just didn't know what the thing did. :rolleyes:

those swamp coolers are wort something. Especially the thermador brand.

they really didnt work that great unless you were in an area with low humidity. in FL they are useless.

I second the parallel flow condenser. Being right up in front of the car, condensers suffer all kinds of issues from bugs, rocks, etc. There is no sense in a stock used one, unless it really looks fresh, and even then I still wouldn't install anything but a parallel flow universal replacement.

While we're on the subject of retrofitting AC, why not also take the time to improve on the design. No matter what compressor the W123's came with, they suck. The Yorks, while being long-lived and fully rebuildable, are massive and suck engine power like crazy, plus they will only fit a non-turbo car. The Harrison R4 compressor is a pile of crap no matter how many times it has been revised since it was created, and honestly, it would be insane to buy a used compressor, so why not swap a Sanden in for the R4?

I subscribe to the theory that the devil you know is better than the one you don't. Swapping out cars because of a lack of AC? You won't see me do it. The entire original AC system in my '77 300D is afflicted with "black death." Eventually, I'll replace every soft line, upgrade the condenser, and install a factory fresh modern compressor under the hood.

Changing from ACC to manual climate control may, or may not happen for my car... It all depends on whether or not I come across an AC equipped manual control donor car before I'm done with everything else I have to do. I could easily drop hundreds on a digital replacement for the Evil Servo of Doom and continue to have auto climate controls. One option is cheap and hard, the other is expensive and easy, but that's my position.

The original poster lacks AC controls completely, so they will have no way out of pulling a dash and doing a lot of work in order to even gain control over an AC system - All that, and they get to install the underhood components, too. Not an enviable position at all, but if the car is special to them, and they can justify the expense and effort, I say go for it!

Well, reason I asked is I was looking at a 300D import that I really liked, but it has no A/C. Plus black interior. In Southern California.

I might be inclined to give it a shot adding A/C, but the car is already priced quite high. So it's really not worth it.

I did an ac installation many years ago on my 84 280e. I bought the parts used from Aurora in Washington or Oregon (one of those nw states) and paid my indie to install it. I think I paid about 300 for the parts and he charged my 1200 to do the work (I am pretty sure he did not make his rate on it).

The evap unit under the dash needs to be changed as a part of it....the blower is different too. And unlikely as it may seem, the dash controls are different even though they look the same, (IIRC).

Its a lot of work.

The euros often lack the ac.

Having installed some AC systems in older cars for which no AC kits were availible, I have some questions and suggestions. First, does anyone make a Sanden replacement compressor kit for the Delco R4 compressor?
I've seen kits for the older Fintails and W108s with the York, but nothing for the R4. Second, if you're going to convert to R134, the parallel condenser is a great idea in theory. but the condenser and lines need to be custom made or fitted to work in a W123. It's not a simple bolt-on upgrade, and not neccessary if you can run R12.

As for the rough & noisy Yorks, it may not be neccessary to spin them as fast as they do in our Benzes. I had a customer many years ago with a Sears hang-on AC in a '67 Mustang, and a bad clutch on his York compressr. e also commented that his car always ran hot with the AC on.
So I 'de-rated' his AC by installing a replacement clutch with a larger pulley to drive the York about 20% slower, for a reduction in load on the engine and cooling system.
AC cooling was also a bit reduced but still acceptable.

Around this time I adapted a Sears hang-on AC for a friends 1976 4-cylinder Mazda Miser wagon. The Mazda already had a vacant factory pulley mounted on the crankshaft, but it was sized for the Sankyo (Sanden) compressor that would have been installed by a Mazda dealer. It probably was driving the Sears-York at least 30% slower than normal. AC performance was a bit weak at stoplights, but otherwise it cooled OK, and the load on the 4-cylinder engine and cooling system was barely noticeable.

Of course both these York-driven ACs were using R12.

Happy Motoring, Mark

I know I've seen a sanden "kit" for replacing the York compressors on NA OM617 and OM616 motors consisting of custom brackets - Hardly a kit, but it did solve the issue of mounting the compressor. As far as a kit for replacing an R4 with a Sanden? I've never seen one. Of course, I can weld, so fabricating a bracket is something that I could do. With some old original lines and brackets, I could easily create a way to mount just about any compressor on one of these cars.

As far as R-12 is concerned, let it be known that I am all for R-12 when the system was designed and built for it. In fact, I'm licensed to service mobile AC systems, and do in fact fill them with R-12 when the system calls for it, such as the system in my Saturn. I even have several cans of the stuff rat-holed for future use. Once it gets to the point that an entire AC system needs to be reworked or installed, well, the appeal of R-12 is gone. If I build a system from scratch, I'll build it to run on R-134a and be done with it. R-12 is getting too expensive and too hard to find to be building complete new systems from scratch for it.

... At least, that's how I look at it.

Anyone know if this R4 to Sanden will work on our cars?
http://www.nostalgicairparts.com/air-conditioning/gm-r-4-to-sanden-conversion-bracket-355.php

Ok, got my flame suit on here. I've been recently introduced to Envirosafe Refrigerants by another member here in Arizona and it works great!! A retrofit will be necessary just like the R134 conversion, but Envirosafe uses about 1/3rd the energy of R12 and close to half of what it takes for R134! My dash outlet temps are 44*F in summer Phoenix's famous desert heat of 115*F or higher and without dumping too much heat in the engine compartment!

Now I realise that not all States will accept Envirosafe as a legal refrigerant, but quite a few now have relaxed their laws to let the market decide now that this has become a fuel saving measure and Arizona is one of them. Only Wisconsin outright restricts the importation of ANY Envirosafe into the state. In Yuma Arizona, Envirosafe is very popular because their Desert Temps can get to 130*F and at that temp, R134 will blow the head off of the older Compressors meant for R12 and Envirosafe will not! In fact, now our border patrol is using it in their vehicles and in mobile cooling units to keep the border patrol from burning up!

Also, there is a direct replacement compressor made to replace the R4 made by Mapco that uses your mounting backets, electrical connections and original refrigerant lines to the compressor! At a reasonable price too!

Pardon my scepticism but 44 degrees faranheit seems impossible.

I won't flame you. The stuff is a hydrocarbon, and for some reason or another, the EPA thinks it is evil. Why, I cannot say. I only know one thing - as a 609 certification holder, I am banned from using it in a system I am servicing, and for that matter, am also banned from servicing a system that has been filled with it.

My hands are tied, as I really can't afford the kinds of fines the EPA likes to slap on people, and I really, really don't ever want to go to prison. :eek:

Oops, I meant 48*F! At that point my freeze up switch cuts out and cycles the AC pump off and I hardle notice my engine idle slowing when it kicks on. Dash vent temps are at 55*F to 57*F at idle and down to 48*F driving on highway!:D Believe me, I couldn't be more pleased! New Compressor as well. 4 Seasons makes a replacement for the GM R4 for a reasonable price and it works great with Envirosafe 12.

Yes Tom, my spin filter needs replacing after that (even at 48*) ...remember, after all, I'm in the Showme state.:)

However, sounds like Enviro stuff warrants further research and I'll keep it on the radar.

48 seems impossible too.

Sanden compressor
 

There is a guy on E-Bay that sell all kinds of DVD`s on how to fix/repair the W123 and W126. every thing from replacing the starter,valve adjustment. vacuum repair etc...

They also have one on replacing the R4 compressor to a sanden compressor. A how to on making the brackets, run the lines etc...

They also show how to install a parrell flow condensor.


The seller goes by the name of SYMBOLGUY. the Item is listed as
Mercedes GM R4 to Sanden Compressor upgrade
$19.95 $5.00 shipping or $24.95 Buy now.

Charlie

Good info there. I'm shocked to hear, err, read myself typing this, but finally there seems that there may be an eBay DVD worth buying.

Here's a link to a kit I purchased:
http://www.europeancoolerair.com/nonac01.htm
Its fairly expensive for the complete kit. In the claim by ICE for increasing power, if they are replacing the York or the R4 with a Sanden unit, then the Sanden takes less power to operate it. I think its 3-5 hp for the Sanden and 15 hp for the York or R4.
Tom

Here is what you will need to do:
Find 240D of similar year to yours (they are pretty much the same throughout each 'generation') that has A/C
1) remove dashboard to get to all the bits
2) remove the wood trim panel from the dash that controls the center vents and carefully detach it from the climate control unit (has plastic lock pin holding it to an internal damper)
3) remove heater control valve (you'll need this unless it is the same as on your car, but it still needs to be out to allow the climate control to come out)
4) pull complete climate control unit from under dash; take pictures while you're there, youll be glad you did later... it is best to take your time so you dont break anything (ask me how I know) and get everything that attaches to any lever or switch of the climate control
5) remove wiring harness, on the later 240D the harness 'starts' at the 'A/C temperature wheel' on the dash, above the climate control knobs. The harness then goes to the fuse panel (and has some ground wires attached behind the instrument cluster) where it has a couple of connections to fused power. The bulk of it then goes through the firewall and there are 2 relay sockets under a cover forward of the fuse panel. it then drops down to the A/C compressor and then over to the aux fan (which as mentioned before, you will need) from there it 'terminates' at the receiver/dryer on the passenger side, just behind the headlight. There is also another harness which connects to the blower motor control switch and also goes to the fuse panel, you'll need this as well. The only wires you will have to cut are some ground wires that are on the same ring terminal as the harness you want.
6) remove A/C compressor bracketry from the engine block and any accessory pulleys that look different that whats installed on your car
7) remove aux fan and A/C condenser (in front of radiator)

8) buy new compressor (you could take the chance with a junker, but I wouldn't go through all this trouble and skimp on a vital part of the system)
9) buy new hoses (will be by far your biggest expense, but you could also design your own using custom stuff that would probably be a bit cheaper and far more reliable...the stock system uses something like 6 flexible lines with the associated fittings and it really is liable to leak) When I get around to fixing my A/C (SoCal, also, but I live and work on the water and I'm good just rolling the windows down), I am going to replace most of the lines with rigid tubing and then have 2 hoses with about 18 inches or so of flex line where needed to counter the movement of the engine.
10) buy new receiver/dryer, expansion valve (located on climate control unit below glovebox) and belt for compressor
11) buy new vacuum control 'pods' and replace all things vacuum under the dash

12) install new climate control unit (this has the evaporator inside of it which cools the incoming air)
13) install new wiring harness
at this point you should have heater blower control and manual lever control for the heater valves for each side of the car, basically what you have installed from the factory on your car
14) install compressor brackets, compressor, hoses/lines, receiver/dryer, condenser, aux fan and TXV (expansion valve).
15) have system evacuated and ensure no leaks
16) charge system with proper oil and refrigerant
17) attach new belt to accessory drive.
18) plug in compressor and receiver/dryer to wiring harness
19) test system and troubleshot as necessary

I think I've covered everything, but might've missed something minor. Overall, this shouldn't be a really difficult job, just time consuming. Plus, once you get the wiring and climate control unit installed, everything else can be done in stages to minimize up front costs and vehicle down time.

Overall the junkyard parts should be bale to be had for under 100 bux, but the new stuff will be pricey. Once you have all the junkyard stuff tho, you can accumulate is one piece at a time. Then you can look into all the previously mentioned 'upgrades'. Good luck and take your time, and plenty of pics when you do it!

josh

It was a couple days ago I read the info on his Sanden Video. but you don`t have to, but he has the brackets and related parts to do the change over.
Also the oil cooler hose has to be rerouted, and he as that already done. But you need to give a $100.00 core deposit, and then sent him back your old line. Or just do your own fabrication.

I bought their Vacuum video several yrs ago, and the mystery of the systm was revealed. WOW, so simple. That was before MB Shop was discovered. sometimes a visual of something is all it takes for me.:D

Iam not associated with this guy, but I do recommend his DVD`s. the guy is a mechanic, and it is well done.

Charlie

I don't understand why you would go through replacing brackets and making modifications when 4 Seasons makes an R4 type replacement for less than $300 that fits like the original and is much more durable than the R4?:confused:

That R4 replacement is a great improvement over the original, but, (and here is where you want to get out your salt shaker, because this is entirely my opinion based on personal experience that I won't detail here), it's still not on the same level as the Sanden. The last time I checked, the Sanden was closer to $200 new as well. (It has been a few years, so I'd imagine it has gone up just like everything else.)

I'd kick the idea around for a while, since out of pocket costs would end up roughly the same, (Within $75 - $100, a small amount when dealing with AC systems), but somehow think I would still go the Sanden route.

I don't know the power draw for the 4seasons unit. I have been told the Sanden is about 3-5 hp. This seems right as fuel milage loss with mondern cars. I was told the R-4 was about 12 hp loss and the York was 15 hp loss. You will feel a 3-5 hp loss in performance.
Tom

The 4 Seasons unit draws 2.5 to 3 hp off the engine. Now I have to say that 15 HP for a York and 12 for an R4 in horsepower draw isn't sitting well in my spin filter and I doubt those claims! R12 did draw a lot of power, but R134 draws even more! A York Compressor running on something like Envirosafe is not going to draw 15 HP and I doubt it did with R12 either.

Envirosafe and the other replacement refrigerent don't have as much head pressure as R12 or R134a. At leat from what I've read and what I've been told by others, that I trust. The figures for the York and R4 were told to me by the owner of European Air. Its been a while since I've run my Bricklin with its York compressor. I remember it having a very high draw on power. Considering it has a 351W rated at 180 hp from the factory, I will consider the sources claims as probably vailid. Now considering a 240D has roughly 67-72 hp, then every bit helps. I didn't operate the A/C on my 240D, so I don't have a base line.
Tom

A/C alternantive
 

these are made for small planes :
http://www.arcticaircooler.com

then if you wanted a cheaper route along the same lines

http://www.instructables.com/id/S1LCVUWF54HJ6ST/

Adding A/C wouldn't be a huge job. All the bolt holes are there, you just need time and a parts donor. The manual system from a 240D would be FAR more simple and easier than trying to install an automatic system.

Recycled
 

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