Ron,

I apologize in advance, you probably have described this in other locations numerous times....but how do you do the above?

do you suspend the shutoff vacuum signal for a preset amount of time?

dd

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'85 300D, 'Lance',250k, ... winter beater (100k on franken-Frybrid 3 Valve Kit)
'82 300D, 'Tex', 228k body / 170k engine ... summer car
'83 300TD Cali Wagon 210k, wife's car

Hi dd'

Yes, I added a solenoid (stolen from a Kia Sportage vacuum locking 4x4 hub system) to control vacuum shutoff. My controller is home made with a PIC micro controller but I have seen the auto purge feature on several commercial veggie controllers. If it is running the purge automatically at idle, it runs a preset time but if I start the purge manually, the controller shortens the time based on rpm above idle to keep cross contamination of fuels to the absolute minimum. It also switches back to diesel automatically just before the WVO tank gets empty.

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Ron Schroeder
'85 300 Turbo Diesel 2 tank WVO
'83 300 Turbo Diesel 2 tank WVO
Some former WVO vehicles since ~1980:
'83 Mercedes 240D
'80 Audi 4000D
'83 ISUZU Pup
'70 SAAB 99 with Kubota diesel
'76 Honda Civic with Kubota diesel
'86 Golf
Several diesel generators
All with 2 tank WVO conversion
LI NY

Good points Ron. I've never had any trouble with getting good oil. I have put partially hydrogenated oil in my single tank systems and have not had any issues. But definitely without the luxury of a heated wvo tank and diesel start up tank, your oil quality needs to be pretty good.

Your diesel use numbers are great for an 11 mile drive. You must switch over almost instantly and only purge at night. Is that right? I know i do not use 1/4 diesel in my single tank either. With the VW TDIs I am an aggressive purger and use about 1/4 diesel. For the sake of making the decision between single or two tank systems, the amount of diesel you use in single vs. two tank in a year is close enough to the same that it is not a significant factor in the decision.



You are in Michigan. I'll take your word for it. I bet my friend has a different problem with his heater or he is using a big tranny cooler in his tank which is sapping to much heat from his coolant. Another non factor in the decision making.

Very cool. How much did that cost? How hard was it to install? A two tank system can be made idiot proof as well but it is more complex and expensive. The very nice systems i've seen with those computers and remote filler tanks with perfect neat installations cost $2,000 or $3,000 if you pay someone to install it. Complexity of install and Price is a significant factor.

I agree there could be more potential for engine damage with single tank system although i have no numbers to confirm it and as you say, few of us wear out an engine. So far after 15,000 miles my compression is the same as the day I started on burning WVO. As long as you keep an eye on your injectors and don't drive it with a clogged injector and change the oil, my hunch is the 617 will go as long as you need it to on single tank or two tank WVO. Until I have more data engine damage is not enough of a factor to have any weight in the decision making process.

[/quote]

Interesting. I'm curious what your source on this is. I completely see why it was a poor seller Also when i was ordering from them and asking about a second tank, they insisted it was uncessary. Clean open trunk space and simplicity is significant factor.

Good discussion. People ask me all the time what i recommend for WVO systems and this has been a good exercise. I think we have covered pretty much all the considerations in choosing single tank and two tank systems in the 617.

If you have bad, high fatty oil or live in the arctic a two tank is the way to go. If your oil is good and you live in the US or lower part of Canada a two tank or a single tank system should perform adequately. A single tank system will cost about half as much as a two tank system and be much simpler to install. Also you wont lose trunk space and potentially grease up your trunk and your car will be simpler to maintain without the extra components. On the other hand, a two tank system gives you redundant fuel systems and has the potential for less engine damage since you are starting on diesel and purging. The trade off is it costs twice as much and takes up trunk space and can be messy.

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What Would Rudolph Do?
1975 300D, 1975 240D, 1985 300SD, 1997 300D, 2005 E320 , 2006 Toyota Prius

Last time I looked at Elsbett's site, their one tank system required the use 100% virgin Rapeseed oil. If you use WVO all bets are off. Even with Rapeseed oil, blending is still necessary below certain temps. Rapeseed oil is not available in the US as far as I know. What are you burning in your single tank?

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85 300D turbo pristine w 157k when purchased 161K now
83 300 D turbo 297K runs great. SOLD!
83 240D 4 spd manual- parted out then junked

That's cool! Another nice thing with using the stock tank for VO is when you get dipped, all they get is VO.

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85 300D turbo pristine w 157k when purchased 161K now
83 300 D turbo 297K runs great. SOLD!
83 240D 4 spd manual- parted out then junked

Canola is a variety of rapeseed widely available in North America.

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1983 CD
1958 Studebaker Packard (being resuscitated)

I know it's a variety but it's not the same. I don't think it is an approved fuel by Elsbett.

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85 300D turbo pristine w 157k when purchased 161K now
83 300 D turbo 297K runs great. SOLD!
83 240D 4 spd manual- parted out then junked

Correct, it has a lower erucic acid profile, which makes it better for human consumption, and reduces its acidity overall, making it a superior alternative fuel.

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1983 CD
1958 Studebaker Packard (being resuscitated)

I've been thinking about converting to a two-tank system for awhile and have come up with the following plan and was wondering what people here think. I want to buy a kit because I am an amateur mechanic and need some instructions, but I need to keep costs down too.

I was going to buy the plantdrive two-tank turbofyner kit, which I believe comes with everything except hoses and tank, add a fphe for extra heat, then get my own tank made. I think total costs would be about 1000-1100. I was considering upgrading to the two 3-port valves.

I don't want to do frybrid because of the costs and waiting time. I was thinking about Greasecar but would like a larger tank and it gets expensive when you add that and a fphe.

Anyone have any thoughts?

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1980 300D, 128K

what is your geographic locale?

are you interested in learning more about your car and knowing its veggy system inside out? then build your own.

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1984 123.193 372,xxx miles, room for Seven.

1999 Dodge Durango Cummins 4BTAA 47RE 5k lb 4x4 getting 25+mpgs, room for Seven.

I don't consider fats or no fats an indication of good or bad oil. Fats are good fuels too. To me, oil with cleaner in it is bad oil, almost everything else can be dealt with. It's getting really hard to get large quantities of oil without fat in it. Near me, nobody uses PHO anymore because of the trans-fats but even the oil from the Chinese restaurants has animal fat in it. When I started with used fryer grease, it was solid shortening/lard. Even in the summer, I had to get my fuel with a shovel. But after de-watering and filtering, it made great fuel.

VW TDIs are notorious for slow warm-up so I can see a lot of diesel usage with them. I do use a radiator dam on my MB in the winter to speed up engine warm up but I do not switch over to WVO until the engine is up to 170F and the FPHE is up to 160F and I do a full purge on shutdown. So with the MB at least, there is a significant reduction of diesel usage per year with 2 tank vs. single tank.


Actually, I am in lower NY. Milder on the average but we do get spells of below zero that I have to drive in. Sometimes when it is really cold, My "greaser" is the only car in the neighborhood that will start.

A tranny cooler in the tank shouldn't ever be used. Even in the Arctic all you need is a heated pickup but you may need to insulate your tank.



My controller was about $30 in parts, has about 3 more wires than if I had just used switches so it didn't take much more time to install. You can also just get a purge alarm.

The remote fill was actually very easy on the MB. About $20 in parts, a 2" hole and 3 screw holes. Other vehicles may be much harder to find a spot for the filler.




I usually drive a vehicle until the wheels fall off or the body rusts off. I have seen vehicles scraped after only a few years of WVO usage but I suspect that improper de-watering was the problem.

The info about dropping the two tank for the W123 came from a phone call to Elsbett.

I think fatty oil is a way of life these days. I look at long term cost in terms of both money and time. It would take me considerable more time to remove the fat from the oil and more money in diesel fuel and more frequent oil changes to go back to single tank. (yes, in the past 30 years, I have run both single and two tank) And, I want my car to start at any time or temperature a regular car can start.

__________________
Ron Schroeder
'85 300 Turbo Diesel 2 tank WVO
'83 300 Turbo Diesel 2 tank WVO
Some former WVO vehicles since ~1980:
'83 Mercedes 240D
'80 Audi 4000D
'83 ISUZU Pup
'70 SAAB 99 with Kubota diesel
'76 Honda Civic with Kubota diesel
'86 Golf
Several diesel generators
All with 2 tank WVO conversion
LI NY

I would like to add that the copilot is a enormous waste of money in my opinion. There have been lots of problems with them, enough that I wired a bypass switch for when it throws a tantrum. The connector is an afterthought at best and not very sturdy. Its operation isn't anything you cant's make cheap with some snap disc thermostats, temp sensors, and a few 12v LEDs, and a switch or two. I'm working on designing a solid state unit for my car.

GC's valves seem to be the best design and easiest to mount and if you want, you can mate them with 1/4 x 5/16 flare fittings to help control air leaks. I've done so and heated a bunch of the lines with resistance wire heaters (homemade.) GC's filter heat exchanger and housing offer more surface area to transfer coolant heat to the WHOLE filter, not just 10-30 degreed passing through a top-mounted exchanger. I like the TIG welded aluminum tank - 15 gal rectangular.

That about covers it for greasecar. In the future, I would get EVERYTHING else from elsewhere or build it myself.

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83 300SD, Euro Delivery, Mesa Red, 275k, running strong & quick.

Stop Struggling and get free.

Rapeseed oil is canola oil. Oilseed Rape, Oilseed, and various other names.

You still DO have to blend it below about 50 degrees or face SERIOUS coking in cylinders and on injectors. There is plenty of data on the frybrid site. Many people blend with diesel and a gallon or two of Gasoline. A search of 'blending' on goople will get lots of information on single tank systems.

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83 300SD, Euro Delivery, Mesa Red, 275k, running strong & quick.

Stop Struggling and get free.

First of all thank you to everyone, I have learned a lot during this thread. I dont mean for this post in any way to close it out...

After evaluating all the options, pricing out DIY components etc, I went with the Frybrid system. I placed my order a few days ago, and am prepared to wait. I have plenty of prep work to do in the meantime.

Here's my figuring from my research, hopefully it will help someone make their own decision:

DIY of a two-tank system capable of running in New England latitudes for 100k miles:

- $300 for custom aluminum baffled tank, 20 gallon trapezoidal to fit behind my stock tank and keep the spare tire accessible
- $70 for FPHE (flat plate heat exchanger - needed for extra heat) from ebay
- $100 for HIH (hose in hose) to front of engine bay and for return with aluminum fuel lines
- $150-200 for commercial heated filter depending on source
(can be done for less DIY using a 617 vehicle filter and electric or coolant heat through a copper coil, but fabrication req'd)
- $150-250 for valves depending on how you go (Greasecar and Frybrid both offer them separately, can be done for less by using Pollack 6 port valves from McMaster-Carr)
- $200 for something like a HotFox fuel pickup, much less if you do the greasecar style copper coil-in-tank type of thing
- $100 for gauges, electrical, switches temp sender, fuel level sender
- $150 for plumbing fittings, coolant hoses, hose clamps, misc hardware
- $50 of unaccounted for experimentation cost that always comes up DIYing
- 100 hours of my labor to fab/install, order right parts. I work slow and its winter :-)
- DIY satisfaction, but also higher degree of risk of snafu's since it is after all DIY

Total: ~$1400 for the best version using commercial components and custom tank, ~$600-700 using plastic tank, DIY filter assembly, DIY in-tank coil, stock valves from McMaster-Carr. Maybe even cheaper if you can scrounge some of the parts.

Frybrid:

- $2000 to my door with 21 gallon tank. Included everything above, plus:
- no DIY satisfaction, but high reliability, warranty coverage
- probably 20-25 hours of hopefully easy install labor from what i can tell
- also get micro-controller for automated switchover and purge alarm


For me, my situation, my car(s), this adds up to Frybrid. As I said previously, I plan to drive this car for 100k or more, wont have time to mess with it come september, and want to be able to give it to my girlfriend to drive to PA and not worry about it.

For others, this calculus adds up to one of the DIY variants. The next time around, after doing this with a kit once, I probably will go DIY. If my Dad restores the 240D in the yard, that would probably be a DIY kit type of thing. I have seen a forum member's (Paul66ct who lives in the next town over) $500 DIY implementation going strong after 40k miles on a 300k mile '83 SD, and its never failed on him.

-dd

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'85 300D, 'Lance',250k, ... winter beater (100k on franken-Frybrid 3 Valve Kit)
'82 300D, 'Tex', 228k body / 170k engine ... summer car
'83 300TD Cali Wagon 210k, wife's car

Looks as if you've decided on going with Frybrid, which you won't be disappointed with, especially after having to wait for it

But I just wanted to point out, for future reference, Pollock valves have failed pretty reliably in VO applications. Go to frybrids forum and search pollock valves there. They really recommend staying away from them. I think the deal is they don't hold up to the temperature, and end up cross-contaminating your fuels. (Actually, in their normal operating mode, they cross contaminate a little every time they switch, supposedly).

Also, I'd probably double your allotment for guages. A fuel gauge and sender (a decent one, VDO) will be more than 50 bucks, and you'll always want to add more gauges. The most valuable are fuel pressure (to monitor filter cloginess) and fuel temperature. To be fair, the frybrid kit only comes with a fuel level gauge. But it uses a nifty inductive type of sender, so no moving parts and its all aluminum, so no gunky buildup on the sender.

Adding a 3rd valve is also a common thing with the frybrid folks (maybe elsewhere too, i haven't been keeping up). But it makes it super easy to backfill your filter after a change (you have to aed your own custom wiring and switch, but its easy) and it keeps your fuel temps hotter, since you're not dumping all that heated VO back to the tank. I can flip back and forth between looping and return-to-tanking, and there's probably 5-10 deg difference between the two, depending on ambient temperatures.

I wish you luck. Now you have to put together a bill of materials for the filtering setup

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1985 300TD-euro 352,000 mi
1974 240D (1?)52,000 mi - has a new home now