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  #76  
Old 02-25-2009, 01:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyL View Post
I'm actually not familiar at all with the prechamber in these, and where the glow plug is relative to the injector. But if the injector is removed I'm guessing that does not allow a different method of getting penetrate onto the body of the glow plug????
That sounds like a great idea if you find the plug won't turn. Pulling the injector and making a spray aiming device that won't fall in and gets the end of the glow plug good and soaked sounds like it will definitely get the WD-40 or whatever right to the trouble spot. I will have to look for a cross section to see...

Jim
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Own:
1986 Euro 190E 2.3-16 (291,000 miles),
1998 E300D TurboDiesel, 231,000 miles -purchased with 45,000,
1988 300E 5-speed 252,000 miles,
1983 240D 4-speed, purchased w/136,000, now with 222,000 miles.
2009 ML320CDI Bluetec, 89,000 miles

Owned:
1971 220D (250,000 miles plus, sold to father-in-law),
1975 240D (245,000 miles - died of body rot),
1991 350SD (176,560 miles, weakest Benz I have owned),
1999 C230 Sport (45,400 miles),
1982 240D (321,000 miles, put to sleep)
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  #77  
Old 02-25-2009, 01:26 AM
Todd Miller's Avatar
1966 250SE Coupe Owner
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SoCal
Posts: 293
Why hasn't Mercedes asked Bosch to make the body of the GP about 1mm smaller in diameter, and then a teflon sleeve could go on the body. The "seating" end could stay the same diameter, as could the threaded end, so no mod to the head would need to be done. Then if carbon built up, big deal, the GP would still spin inside the teflon sleeve, and could be unscrewed.
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  #78  
Old 02-25-2009, 01:38 AM
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Seems especially negligent of MB considering this is not a recent development, and the condition appears to persist on the CDI and Bluetech models. Shame as it is this kind of stuff that the past "engineered like no other" approach seemed to build into the "luxury" aspect of owning one of these cars - they were nearly indestructible and didn't demand the owner or mechanic be able to outwit McGiver at every sign of trouble. Jim
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Own:
1986 Euro 190E 2.3-16 (291,000 miles),
1998 E300D TurboDiesel, 231,000 miles -purchased with 45,000,
1988 300E 5-speed 252,000 miles,
1983 240D 4-speed, purchased w/136,000, now with 222,000 miles.
2009 ML320CDI Bluetec, 89,000 miles

Owned:
1971 220D (250,000 miles plus, sold to father-in-law),
1975 240D (245,000 miles - died of body rot),
1991 350SD (176,560 miles, weakest Benz I have owned),
1999 C230 Sport (45,400 miles),
1982 240D (321,000 miles, put to sleep)
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  #79  
Old 02-25-2009, 03:42 AM
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Its just a thought but I wonder if different brands of glow plugs are over/under size?

I notice that members when attempting this job either get the plugs out straight away without incident or the usual marathon ensues

The other thing is some engines which may have missed service intervals may not have had the plugs changed, any ideas when MB recommend replacement?

Last thing, do MB recommend a particular brand? the ones which caused my problems were NGK from memory which carried very small circular machining rings around the shaft, this certainly didnt help but the Bosch Duraterms I fitted have been fine.



Duratermshttp://www.boschautoparts.co.uk/pcGlow2.asp?c=2&d=1
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1996 Mercedes S124 E300TD - 129k - rolling restoration project -

1998 Mercedes W210 300TD - 118k (assimilated into above vehicle)
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  #80  
Old 02-25-2009, 09:55 AM
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Perhaps instead of banging away with the impact wrench set on low torque (didn't work for me after 30 min/stuck plug), massive vibration would bust them loose. Recall some threads about keys stuck in "ignition" lock. Some have sucessfully vibrated keys out with vibrating sander held on the key. Think of some tool or device that would vibrate the begesus out of the stuck plug. Maybe an air scaler or something like that. Just thinking.
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  #81  
Old 02-25-2009, 11:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spock505 View Post
...Last thing, do MB recommend a particular brand? the ones which caused my problems were NGK from memory which carried very small circular machining rings around the shaft, this certainly didnt help but the Bosch Duraterms I fitted have been fine...

Mercedes recommends that you use the M-B brand GPs, not aftermarket. I don't know if anyone has done a comprehensive comparison of the OE V OEM GPs to see if there is any difference. Maybe there is, maybe not. The OE plugs I used were made by Bosch but I don't know if they are 100% identical to the same Bosch plugs you can buy from Pep-Boys. I suspect they are.

It does seem odd that after all these years Mercedes hasn't worked with the vendors to help develop a stronger plug design that doesn't break. I'm sure if you as Mercedes they will blame the plug vendor and if you ask the plug vendors they will blame the head design for conditions that cause the plugs to get stuck...no German makers ever admit they ever made anything that wasn't perfect
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  #82  
Old 02-25-2009, 12:39 PM
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after drilling progressively oversized, and progressively deeper into the stuck GP, eventually threading it's ID to 3/8" and threading a piece of threaded rod about 1" into the GP body - I used an air hammer on that threaded rod, both towards and away from the head - no effect whatsoever! Very frustrating.

I've decided to give up for now - and drive it until some sound tells me it's finally broken loose.
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  #83  
Old 02-25-2009, 03:39 PM
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One thing that I don't get about this is how all this carbon is getting along side the GP. Doesn't the end of the GB body, where it tapers, crush into a seat in the cylinder head? And if so, shouldn't this "crush" area seal off, and prevent carbon from entering along the side of the GP body?

In my pee brain, the solution is either to make a GP with a sleeve that will allow the GP to rotate and unthread, no matter how much carbon builds up (as I mentioned above) or the head needs to have time-serts installed for each GP to thread into, and the GP body needs to be grade 8 or better steel.

And regarding service, and removing the GP's for occational "checking" or "cleaning," the design of having the intake manifold mounted over the GP's makes this sort of a pain in the a$$. The car's got to have the front end up on ramps so you can remove the middle belly pan, then extract that bolt from under the intake manifold, then go up top and start working, etc.

IMO, MBZ is selling Ferarri engineering under the guise of bulletproof 3 star badge.
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  #84  
Old 02-25-2009, 07:22 PM
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I'll pull one of the Bosch ones tomorrow for measurement against similar.

I just wondering of they are a service item as part of MB service intervals if so do they recommend a special lub to be used which maybe isn't being used by the home mechanic?

Also how many people torque their plugs in? could add to the problem as from memory the plugs are tapered.
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1996 Mercedes S124 E300TD - 129k - rolling restoration project -

1998 Mercedes W210 300TD - 118k (assimilated into above vehicle)
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  #85  
Old 02-25-2009, 07:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nhdoc View Post
Mercedes recommends that you use the M-B brand GPs, not aftermarket. I don't know if anyone has done a comprehensive comparison of the OE V OEM GPs to see if there is any difference. Maybe there is, maybe not. The OE plugs I used were made by Bosch but I don't know if they are 100% identical to the same Bosch plugs you can buy from Pep-Boys. I suspect they are.

It does seem odd that after all these years Mercedes hasn't worked with the vendors to help develop a stronger plug design that doesn't break. I'm sure if you as Mercedes they will blame the plug vendor and if you ask the plug vendors they will blame the head design for conditions that cause the plugs to get stuck...no German makers ever admit they ever made anything that wasn't perfect
FYI - Original equipment (as the car came from the factory) was with Beru GP's installed, rather than Bosch. This continues with the CDI and Bluetecs too.
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  #86  
Old 02-25-2009, 08:12 PM
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good info inc special glow plug grease

http://www.beru.com/english/produkte/gluehkerzen/einbautipps.php
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1996 Mercedes S124 E300TD - 129k - rolling restoration project -

1998 Mercedes W210 300TD - 118k (assimilated into above vehicle)
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  #87  
Old 02-25-2009, 11:17 PM
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Excellent link to have as part of this thread!

A little update on the car I'm working on: Runs fine and today I replaced the leaking o-rings on the engine coolant t-stat housing and oil level sender. However, was getting a "check engine electrics" message on the instrument cluster. Took it to a local Mercedes only Indy and paid them to read and clear the codes. Kept getting a code coming back and their Mercedes factory scan tool was showing a string of codes related to the instrument cluster. They suspect the "K40" module inside the electronics box on the left inner fender area. Popped it out, moved it around, tapped it with a screw driver handle and the codes were able to be cleared and didn't return. So it looks like there's more fun to be had with this car!
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  #88  
Old 02-25-2009, 11:22 PM
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K40 relays are pretty common on our cars. If it hasn't been replaced previusly its past due to fail.
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  #89  
Old 02-26-2009, 12:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spock505 View Post
While the Glow Plug Grease will may eliminate sticking in the threaded and shaft area it still will not help those that get trapped by Carbon Deposits around the Electrode; as evidenced by a Glow Plug that threads out part way before it beaks off.

BERU Glow Plug assembly grease
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  #90  
Old 02-26-2009, 12:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMAllison View Post
K40 relays are pretty common on our cars. If it hasn't been replaced previusly its past due to fail.
Thanks for that Terry. Is there a source for them other than dealer?
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