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  #16  
Old 03-10-2009, 06:50 PM
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Answer

Quote:
Originally Posted by C Holmes View Post
I have a M603 in an 87 300TDT and lately it will start right up and then stall and is very hard to start after that.
Once going it is fine.
Does this engine have a fuel pump other than the inj pump?
Is there a check valve in the line that could have failed?
Anyone have any idea what could cause this?
I have just changed the filters and it hasn't done it since but it only does it once in awhile anyways.
Here is a link to the valve for your engine:
6010700146 Diesel fuel return valve/banjo bolt
6010700146 Diesel fuel return valve/banjo bolt

Plastic fuel lines, injection pump, OM603.961, 603.960
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/mercedes-parts-reference-library/204761-om603-960-961-plastic-fuel-lines-injection-pump.html#post1669461


Some other links to help you diagnose the issue.


603.96 IP reseal shopping list
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/239827-603-96-ip-reseal-shopping-list.html#post2043716

99 e300td injector pump leak
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/105291-99-e300td-injector-pump-leak.html#post723792

Leaking fuel out of thermostat - 1987 300D turbo
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/150203-leaking-fuel-out-thermostat-1987-300d-turbo.html#post1138239

Diesel Injection:
Diesel Injection:

Fuel Delivery:
Diesel Fuel Delivery:


Last edited by whunter; 03-10-2009 at 06:55 PM.
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  #17  
Old 03-11-2009, 02:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C Holmes View Post
Well it seems this is so but it will do it after only sitting for a short while. Is there an auxillary fuel pump? Also where is the hand pump? I know there must be one but I can't seem to locate it.
Sorry, I believe your Engine does not have a Hand Primer Pump and when I looked at that site I did not see an Auxillary Fuel Pump listed on the part diagram.

There should be at least 1 Valve in the Fuel Supply pump that is between the in comming fuel and the Fuel tank. If something stuck under the Valve or the valve was worn out that could also allow the Fuel to leak back towards the tank.
Since you do not have a Hand Primer fill your Fuel Tank full and park some place or safely raise the rear of your car so that the Fuel Tank is higher; and see if it starts OK like that.

Another test (not a on the road test) would be to get a container of Diesel Fuel to sub for a fuel tank. Run a hose from the primary filter to the container. Get the Car started. Let the Car sit a length of time that would normally cause a starting problem and see if it will start OK. If you can keep the container above the IP.
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  #18  
Old 03-11-2009, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C Holmes View Post
Well it seems this is so but it will do it after only sitting for a short while. Is there an auxillary fuel pump? Also where is the hand pump? I know there must be one but I can't seem to locate it.
The OM60x series of engines do NOT have a hand primer. They are self priming, although very slowly.
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  #19  
Old 03-11-2009, 04:44 PM
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well the problem is it may work fine for a few days or a week and then all of the sudden, it will do this. Where is this check valve located?
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  #20  
Old 03-11-2009, 05:39 PM
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Answer

Quote:
Originally Posted by C Holmes View Post
well the problem is it may work fine for a few days or a week and then all of the sudden, it will do this. Where is this check valve located?
Between engine block and injection pump.
Look at the picture attached to post# 1.
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  #21  
Old 03-11-2009, 05:44 PM
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my guess is that there is a setting station when they make the valve, where they set the pressure of the valve and spring combination in assembly. springs, even the best ones have a 10% tolerance on performance. the smaller the spring pressure, the more the variation. this is most likely why you cannot buy the spring seperate, something needs adjusted for the new spring.
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  #22  
Old 03-11-2009, 06:44 PM
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Gentlemen,
I believe the spring can be seen under section "injection..." om615 of the EPC.
Since both the valve #28,MB 0000747284 and the evasive spring #28F ,MB 0010740893 share the same note *94 and according to the EPC graphic pattern,we can conclude the spring belongs to the valve.
The MB number corresponds to Bosch #1 414 610 008 and has green light on the Bosch online cat.
http://www.bosch-automotive.com/ecat-online/
...it`s available at the dealer too,the price is 44 Russian roubles,acc to the Russian site -1.25 USD...or 0,30 Euro from Bosch dealers.
http://www.teilesuche24.de/ersatzteile/feder,bosch_1414610008
Attached Thumbnails
Fuel injection pump starvation with a good lift pump-pass-valve-spring.gif  
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  #23  
Old 03-11-2009, 07:47 PM
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>>my guess is that there is a setting station

I would be really surprised if that were the case.

The fuel pressure in the gallery of the IP doesn't have a strong effect upon how much fuel is injected - the metering is done by the helix on the plunger, and small changes in the fuel pressure can't significantly change the mass of fuel trapped / pumped by the element.

The only real purpose of providing some small positive pressure in the fuel gallery is to avoid cavitation as the plunger descends and fuel suddenly experiences a low pressure as it rushes into the element, and small variations away from the nominal check valve pressure won't noticably affect the operation of the IP. Cavitation would both upset the metering of fuel, and cause mechanical damage to the pump element.

The important thing is to make sure that whatever you do to this check valve an adequate return flow of fuel to the tank is maintained - the fuel flow cools the IP, and an over strong check valve spring may stop this important cooling.
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  #24  
Old 03-11-2009, 08:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Number_Cruncher View Post
>>my guess is that there is a setting station

I would be really surprised if that were the case.

The fuel pressure in the gallery of the IP doesn't have a strong effect upon how much fuel is injected - the metering is done by the helix on the plunger, and small changes in the fuel pressure can't significantly change the mass of fuel trapped / pumped by the element.

The only real purpose of providing some small positive pressure in the fuel gallery is to avoid cavitation as the plunger descends and fuel suddenly experiences a low pressure as it rushes into the element, and small variations away from the nominal check valve pressure won't noticably affect the operation of the IP. Cavitation would both upset the metering of fuel, and cause mechanical damage to the pump element.

The important thing is to make sure that whatever you do to this check valve an adequate return flow of fuel to the tank is maintained - the fuel flow cools the IP, and an over strong check valve spring may stop this important cooling.

I was just guessing based on the fact you cannot buy the spring. Looking at an assembly you can not always see the adjustment done at the factory. At bendix for example, there was such a huge tolerance stack on the power brake booster to brake master cylinder that they had several bins of rods that looked identical, each one was about .020 different in length. A tool was inserted in the master and the last color band showing determined which bin of rod was assembled. In looking at any of the parts you could see no possible adjustment, but it was there. I was just thinking maybe they had bins of springs ready for the valve after some initial measurement was made, in this way they could tune the tolerance, yet no visible adjustent is there. Maybe they just figure if the spring is shot the valve probably needs replacing too. In looking at MB parts, they seem to allow service where it is feasable, so they must have a reason not to sell the spring seperate.
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  #25  
Old 03-12-2009, 02:33 AM
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Interesting

Quote:
Originally Posted by vox_incognita View Post
Gentlemen,
I believe the spring can be seen under section "injection..." om615 of the EPC.
Since both the valve #28,MB 0000747284 and the evasive spring #28F ,MB 0010740893 share the same note *94 and according to the EPC graphic pattern,we can conclude the spring belongs to the valve.
The MB number corresponds to Bosch #1 414 610 008 and has green light on the Bosch online cat.
http://www.bosch-automotive.com/ecat-online/
...it`s available at the dealer too,the price is 44 Russian roubles,acc to the Russian site -1.25 USD...or 0,30 Euro from Bosch dealers.
http://www.teilesuche24.de/ersatzteile/feder,bosch_1414610008
I looked it up under OM615.939
Checking all MB sources comes back no longer available.

I will check directly with BOSH tomorrow, to verify we can get them in North America, and buy one for testing.
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  #26  
Old 03-12-2009, 05:26 AM
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I do not see a picture on post #1, just a parts listing.
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  #27  
Old 03-12-2009, 10:10 AM
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>>At bendix for example...

Yes, I fully agree that's a critical setting - too tight and the brakes can lock on, and too loose, owing to the pedal lever ratio, the brake pedal will feel awful. On many brake servos (boosters) in Europe, there's a threaded adjustment on that rod to enable the proper assembly of the 2 parts - many don't even know it's there! (until their brakes lock up 3 miles down the road smoking!)

In this case though, I don't see the setting for the IP relief valve being at all critical, and certainly not something to calibrate or to use a selective assembly process for. As long as the opening pressure is above the level required to prevent cavitation in the IP, and comfortably below the maximum lift pump delivery pressure, it will work well.
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  #28  
Old 03-13-2009, 08:29 PM
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Is there one of these springs on the M603 engine? Anyone have a picture of it?
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  #29  
Old 03-14-2009, 03:01 AM
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No

Quote:
Originally Posted by C Holmes View Post
Is there one of these springs on the M603 engine? Anyone have a picture of it?
The design changed = it is a crimp/press sealed valve = not serviceable.

6010700146 Diesel fuel return valve/banjo bolt
6010700146 Diesel fuel return valve/banjo bolt
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  #30  
Old 03-14-2009, 03:08 AM
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OK

Quote:
Originally Posted by vox_incognita View Post
Gentlemen,
I believe the spring can be seen under section "injection..." om615 of the EPC.
Since both the valve #28,MB 0000747284 and the evasive spring #28F ,MB 0010740893 share the same note *94 and according to the EPC graphic pattern,we can conclude the spring belongs to the valve.
The MB number corresponds to Bosch #1 414 610 008 and has green light on the Bosch online cat.
http://www.bosch-automotive.com/ecat-online/
...it`s available at the dealer too,the price is 44 Russian roubles,acc to the Russian site -1.25 USD...or 0,30 Euro from Bosch dealers.
http://www.teilesuche24.de/ersatzteile/feder,bosch_1414610008
I checked with BOSCH.
There where two remaining in North America, I bought them, arriving next week.
They are trying to order more, but warn that it appears to be a discontinued part#...
I will take one of my samples to a spring supplier for matching.

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