Onboard pre-oiler - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

leathermang · #16 10-09-2014, 03:54 PM

If you read Whunter's references.... you will see I have been interested in this a long time...
but I never did figure out where on OUR engines it would be feasible to inject the oil ....AND WHERE are you going to draw it from ? Are you wiling to make a hole in your oil pan to pull it from ?
Study the pictures of the oil system long and hard... as it is a little complicated....

Diesel911 · #17 10-10-2014, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leathermang

If you read Whunter's references.... you will see I have been interested in this a long time...
but I never did figure out where on OUR engines it would be feasible to inject the oil ....AND WHERE are you going to draw it from ? Are you wiling to make a hole in your oil pan to pull it from ?
Study the pictures of the oil system long and hard... as it is a little complicated....

I am not sure what the Pan on a 240D looks like. But, as you said that would be the easy place to tap from.

When the Engine is Cold the Oil Filter Thermostat is supposed to be closed that could and in theory that it should also block off the Oil Flow coming from the opposite direction.

That could mean you could pump Oil into the Oil Return Hose from the Oil Cooler and back into the Filter housing to pass through the Filter and into the Engine.

If the Oil Cooler Thermostat would not hold back the pressure you would need to put a one way Valve in the Oil Return from the Oil Filter so the Oil pressure would only go back towards the Oil Filter Housing.
I think the bugger is that the Oil Filter Housing holds a large volume of Oil. I think that would mean you need an Electric Pump or it will not supply enough volume.

Also without a One-way Valve in the Return Oil Cooler Line you might the Oil Cooler and Oil Cooler Inlet Hose might have to be back filled with Oil.
The One-way Valve needs to be between the Oil Cooler outlet and where you are pushing in the Oil from the remote Pump. I guess there also needs to be another One-way Valve to keep Oil from back flowing though the Remote Oil Pump System once the Engine is going.

Doing the above also avoids having to add another Filter to the Remote Oil Pump System since you would be using the Stock Fitler.

You would need a separate Oil Filter to do the below.
On Engines With a Turbo might be able to use a longer Banjo Bolt and stack 2 Banjos. the normal Turbo Banjo and another one for the Oil coming from the Remote Oil Pump.

That is easy but the bugger there is the Banjo Bolts have small holes in them and would restrict the Oil Flow making it slow to pressurize the system.

If you want a lager hole to flow more Oil you would need to custom make a Banjo Bolt that has the Oil Passage and fitting inline with the Banjo Bolt. That way you do not need an 2nd Banjo.

leathermang · #18 10-10-2014, 08:47 AM

Diesel911, Good description of the situation.... I was about to mention that need for a one way valve ( temporarily ).... otherwise there is that possibility of pumping the oil without it actually going to the desired locations .... the crank,rod and piston pin and cam....which brings up the need to locate the pressure reading sending unit in a place which will reflect correct pumping direction.... which the original one May not indicate.

rscurtis · #19 10-10-2014, 09:32 AM

There was a lot of discussion on the TDR a number of years ago about the so-called benefits of pre oilers. They were more trouble than they were worth, and here's one other thing to consider- their external plumbing is another failure point where all your oil could be lost catastrophically. The uptake is that the cure was worse than the disease.

OM617YOTA · #20 10-10-2014, 01:36 PM

The engines last forever and lose compression before they wear out the bearings. Great idea but........what's the point?

Diesel911 · #21 10-10-2014, 03:23 PM

If you can bring the Oil Pressure up enough to get the Oil Squinters on the Turbo to work that would help reduce Cylinder wear.

The Particles from Bearing Wear are going to get Circulated through the whole System and in one of the long Oil Filter Threads they typical stock Oil Filters filter to 22-27 nominal Microns. Read the definition of Nominal Microns and it means that the Filter only Filter out 50% of the 22-27 Nominal Micron Particles. To me that means that larger particles are also passing through.
Anyway less Bearing wear would mean less particles circulating through the System and that would include the Cylinders.

I have not re-read the whole thread but did someone mention the possibility have having the same Oil Priming system also act as a back up incase of Engine Oil Pump failure at least to give you enough time to get off of the Road.

Mxfrank · #22 10-10-2014, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leathermang

If you read Whunter's references.... you will see I have been interested in this a long time...
but I never did figure out where on OUR engines it would be feasible to inject the oil ....AND WHERE are you going to draw it from ? Are you wiling to make a hole in your oil pan to pull it from ?
Study the pictures of the oil system long and hard... as it is a little complicated....

Again, I'm fairly sure that there are plugs in the oil gallery along the right side of the block. On turbo motors, that's where they tap in for the oil feed. You don't need a return if you use an Accusump, it really simplifies the plumbing. It retains oil at the operating pressure of the gallery it's plugged into, and releases it back into the gallery when the valve opens. It will instantly pressurize the system to 1.5 bar, no problem, and has the extra advantage that it will maintain pressure if you do a 1G corner

and starve the pump. Simple is better.

Unless you're thinking of building a racing motor, I just don't see the need. These engines go 400K miles or more in stock form without spun bearings or bad rings.

leathermang · #23 10-10-2014, 04:03 PM

I do not have a turbo engine at this time....
but I think the squirters are on the left side of the engine...
and I do not know of any built in place to tap that oil passage.... it is closed at the back end of the block with a pressed in steel ball bearing.
One system you are describing is more for catastrophic oil pressure loss.... as compared to pre oiling...
and what makes you think putting oil into the squirter oil gallery would force oil to where we want it.... as compared to simply sending it to the oil pump ? It does like any other liquid following the path of least resistance...

Mxfrank · #24 10-10-2014, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leathermang

I do not have a turbo engine at this time....
but I think the squirters are on the left side of the engine...
and I do not know of any built in place to tap that oil passage.... it is closed at the back end of the block with a pressed in steel ball bearing.
One system you are describing is more for catastrophic oil pressure loss.... as compared to pre oiling...
and what makes you think putting oil into the squirter oil gallery would force oil to where we want it.... as compared to simply sending it to the oil pump ? It does like any other liquid following the path of least resistance...

I keep forgetting that Mercedes aren't subject to the same laws of physics as other cars. A valved Accusump works fine as a pre-oiler, at least on physics-compliant cars like Jags and Ferrari's.

Any engine's oil pump is positive displacement, and won't allow oil to pass backwards (unless it's turning backwards.) And remember, the pump rotors can't budge in either direction unless the engine is running. You won't force oil into the sump. A shot from an Accusump will pressurize the galleries and oil will go exactly where you want it to. Where you plumb in isn't all that critical: pressure is everywhere. If you really want to implement a complex solution, you'll still have the problem of plumbing into an oil gallery. Accusump would save you also having to plumb into the sump, and would probably avoid a dozen other complications. I' sure that in the worst case, you can check out a turbo block and drill a hole in the same spot to tap your pressure gallery. Or you could just T off the oil pressure sensor.

Here's a quote from the Accusump website:

"An Accusump is an oil reservoir that is connected to the engine's oiling system. It is designed to deliver pressurized oil to an engine before starting to eliminate dry star scuffing (pre-oiling) and to discharge its reservoir of oil during low oil pressure surges to protect against engine damage during demanding racing conditions.

It installs simply with only one oil line connecting it. Through this line the Accusump fills and discharges. This oil line may be plumbed into the return line of an oil cooler or remote filter using a "T" fitting, into an oil input sandwich adapter, or directly into one of the engines oil galleys.

The Accusump's design includes a piston. On one side of this piston is pressurized air and on the other side of the piston is the reserve of oil. To hold this reserve of oil in the Accusump when the engine is not running and there is no oil pressure to hold it, a valve must be installed on the oil line. The three different valve options for the Accusump are the manual ball valve for pre-oiling and surge control, electric valve for pre-oiling operation , and the EPC (electric pressure control) valve for pre-oiling and surge control. Before the engine is started the operator should open the manual valve or turn on the toggle switch or ignition switch to activate the electric valve or the EPC valve. The opened or activated valve releases the reserve of oil that is under pressure in the Accusump. This released oil will go tot the engine's bearings to pre-oil the engine for a non-scuff start. After the engine is running and the oil pump builds pressure, oil is pumped back into the Accusump for the next restart or whenever the engine's normal oil pressure is interrupted. The Accusump will automatically charge and discharge as needed to maintain oil pressure during hard cornering , acceleration and braking."

leathermang · #25 10-10-2014, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mxfrank

I keep forgetting that Mercedes aren't subject to the same laws of physics as other cars. ......"

Very funny...
have you checked the oil routing for any pop off high side valves ?
For instance... is there a high pressure relief between the oil pump .... and
the desired destination of the oil normally .... which routes oil back to the pan to relieve any excess pressure ?