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#1
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Clutch saga continues... what to do next?
Ok I am going to make this long story as short as possible without leaving out any important details. I've bolded key points for skimmers.
Last november, my clutch suddenly stopped working on the freeway near work. I managed to drive it home late at night 45 miles with no clutch. I found that my fluid reservoir for the clutch was low, but I could not find any evidence of a leak on any line, at the MC, or at the slave, so I didn't have any indication of what had actually gone wrong so I had to troubleshoot everything... 1. At first I tried just adding fluid and bleeding the system. I tried every method I have read about several times. 2. That didn't work so I went on to changing out the slave, and bled again, this time, just the FSM method. 3. That didn't work so I replaced the clutch master cyl, again bled it, this time trying the FSM method and then several other methods including top down with a pressure bleeder, bottom up with a pressure bleeder, and other variations on these. After all of this, the clutch is still not working. Here is some additional information: 1. One thing I noted when the clutch was working was that in neutral at idle with the clutch pedal out, there would be a clattering sound coming from the area of the transmission. It sounded like a very distant jackhammer. It would go away if I would push in the clutch pedal and let it out. I don't ever hear this sound anymore now when the car is idling in neutral. 2. I noticed a few days before the clutch failed that there was a "notchy" feeling in the clutch pedal, like I would feel a little catch when pressing it down or letting it up (I can't remember which, or maybe it was both pushing down and letting up). This did not concern me at the tme though because it was minor. 3. One thing I have noticed when bleeding is that when I use any method of bottom up bleeding (using the FSM brakes --> clutch method, or using a pressure bleeder bottom up), that fluid does not actually seem to go anywhere. It doesn't come up through the upper reservoir, and with the pressure bleeder, the fluid did not seem to be getting any lower in the bleeder. However, when bleeding from top down, the fluid would go through just fine. It is as if there is a check valve in the system that does not allow fluid to flow back upwards. 4. When I took out the MC, the top of it just sprung right off. I thought this was a sure sign that that was what had gone wrong, but after replacing it, the problem was not fixed. 5. I could be wrong about this, but I swear that when driving the car with no clutch, that pushing in the clutch pedal did seem to raise the RPMs of the engine, as though it was disengaging the clutch somewhat, but not enough to actually shift into another gear using the clutch. OK that is long, but I am hoping someone can give me advice as to what do try next. If it is a matter of digging into the trans itself (for example the throwout bearing, which I have heard suggested that it might be), does that require any special tools and is it something a noob could do? I would take it to a mechanic if it isn't something I can do myself, but I am not afraid to try if it is DIYable. This car was only $400, but it was fun to drive. I would love to get it back on the road.
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1979 240D w/4 Speed Manual, Light Blue Estimated 225-275K Miles - "Lil' Chugs"
Sold but fondly remembered: 1981 300TD Turbo Tan 235K miles, 1983 300SD Astral Silver 224K miles Last edited by chetwesley; 05-17-2009 at 08:21 PM. |
#2
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Its possible that the clutch disc, or pivot arm has broken. that is what I would check next.
I would try to check the pivot arm.
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1984 Euro 300SDC, (4spd standard) 1986 Toyota Landcruiser Diesel HJ60 5spd X2 Gone but not forgotten (some sold, some stripped) 1983 300 SD, 1985 300 SD, 1983 240D, 1986 300 SDL, 1985 300 SDL, 1983 300 D, 1984 300 D, 1985 300SD, 1987 300 SDL, 1983 300 SD, 1985 300 TD Euro, 1983 380SEC, 1990 300 D, 1987 300D, 1982 300D, 1982 300D, 1994 E420, 1987 300 TD, 1987 300 D, 1984 300 D |
#3
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how would you check the pivot arm? Do you have to open the transmission up to do that?
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1979 240D w/4 Speed Manual, Light Blue Estimated 225-275K Miles - "Lil' Chugs"
Sold but fondly remembered: 1981 300TD Turbo Tan 235K miles, 1983 300SD Astral Silver 224K miles |
#4
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First thing I would check is whether the slave cylinder is actually extending when you step on the clutch. Have someone engage the clutch while you watch. If the slave is actuating but nothing is happening inside the bellhousing then you either have a broken pivot arm or a missing throwout bearing or something like that. Don't know if MB bellhousings have any kind of access hole you can look thru to see what is happening inside. But if the slave is actuating and the clutch is not disengaging you're going to have the pull the transmission to solve the problem.
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1977 300d 70k--sold 08 1985 300TD 185k+ 1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03 1985 409d 65k--sold 06 1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car 1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11 1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper 1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4 1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13 |
#5
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Quote:
Maybe unbolt the slave but leave the hydraulic line attached? I don't know if there would be enough slack to avoid damaging the line.
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1979 240D w/4 Speed Manual, Light Blue Estimated 225-275K Miles - "Lil' Chugs"
Sold but fondly remembered: 1981 300TD Turbo Tan 235K miles, 1983 300SD Astral Silver 224K miles |
#6
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Quote:
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1977 300d 70k--sold 08 1985 300TD 185k+ 1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03 1985 409d 65k--sold 06 1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car 1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11 1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper 1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4 1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13 |
#7
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The slave is on the out side of the transmission on the passenger side. you won`t really be able to see if the slave is working since it is bolted up against the transmission.
removing the slave to see if it working, while you are under the car and having someone push in the peddle, will most likely blow out the piston cup from inside the slave. the only way to see if the pivot arm is broken, or to see the release bearing or clutch disc, it to remove the transmission. these 4 speeds are not all that heavy. I removed one from PNP with out any problem, an automatic would have killed me. Since you haven`t seen the clutch and don`t know how many miles are on it, that could be your problem. If the trans was shifting smoothly through the gears before the problems started, don`t think you would have to have it opened it up. Charlie
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there were three HP ratings on the OM616... 1) Not much power 2) Even less power 3) Not nearly enough power!! 240D w/auto Anyone that thinks a 240D is slow drives too fast. 80 240D Naturally Exasperated, 4-Spd 388k DD 150mph spedo 3:58 Diff We are advised to NOT judge ALL Muslims by the actions of a few lunatics, but we are encouraged to judge ALL gun owners by the actions of a few lunatics. Funny how that works |
#8
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"pulling the trans" is different than "opening it up", just so you know, if your going to pull it basicly you disconect the drive shaft, and unbolt it from the engine, and lay it on the ground . . . then if you need to you could open it up, but doesn't sound like you wowuld need to open it up, if you were to replace the clutch & throwout bearing you would only need to pull it out away from the engine . . . shouldn't be that hard . . . I hope that makes sense . . . sometimes we just assume that others are familur with a procedure . . .
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#9
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I should add that the transmission was working very smoothly before this happened. I never had any problem getting it into any gear, or any grinding other than sometimes when putting it into reverse without putting it into first previously (which I read is pretty normal), and nothing else suggesting there was any problem with it whatsoever, aside from the noise I mentioned in the initial post.
Also Shawn T.W. thank you and you are right, I have never pulled a transmission. So the clutch and throwout bearing are immediately accessible when you pull the trans away from the engine?
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1979 240D w/4 Speed Manual, Light Blue Estimated 225-275K Miles - "Lil' Chugs"
Sold but fondly remembered: 1981 300TD Turbo Tan 235K miles, 1983 300SD Astral Silver 224K miles |
#10
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So is your clutch failed engaged or disengaged?
The notchy feelings before the failure suggest the possibility of a mechanical failure of either the pressure plate or disc. I don't know how the hydraulics could make anything like that.
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[SIGPIC] Diesel loving autocrossing grandpa Architect. 08 Dodge 3/4 ton with Cummins & six speed; I have had about 35 benzes. I have a 39 Studebaker Coupe Express pickup in which I have had installed a 617 turbo and a five speed manual.[SIGPIC] ..I also have a 427 Cobra replica with an aluminum chassis. |
#11
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Agreed, you are going to need to drop the trans to see what's going on.
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My Primary Driver - '85 300CD - 4-speed conversion, 2.47 rear, lowered, euro headlights, rebuilding (not restoring so much) Wife's - '08 Saab Sportcombi Aero Riding a '03 Yamaha Warrior |
#12
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Clutch failure
I've had the same symptom. Clutch was working fine, I pushed it in one time and all of a sudden it didn't work. I pulled the transmission out and discovered that some of the clutch springs had broken. I replaced the clutch and everything works fine. The trans removal seems intimidating but it's really not hard to do.
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1981 300TD "The Green Lantern" 1980 300TD 1983 300D Euro "China Cat" |
#13
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it may have been asked but where are you located? someone might be able to guide you through a trans drop, its not too difficult really and since these trans are very light it goes rather quickly even as a one man job. the toughest part of the whole thing are the starter bolts and the upper two bell bolts.
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1982 300CD Turbo (Otis, "ups & downs") parts for sale 2003 TJ with Hemi (to go anywhere, quickly) sold 2001 Excursion Powerstroke (to go dependably) 1970 Mustang 428SCJ (to go fast) 1962 Corvette LS1 (to go in style) 2001 Schwinn Grape Krate 10spd (if all else fails) |
#14
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In the DIY section, there is a OM616 Clutch replacement with pictures.
Charlie
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there were three HP ratings on the OM616... 1) Not much power 2) Even less power 3) Not nearly enough power!! 240D w/auto Anyone that thinks a 240D is slow drives too fast. 80 240D Naturally Exasperated, 4-Spd 388k DD 150mph spedo 3:58 Diff We are advised to NOT judge ALL Muslims by the actions of a few lunatics, but we are encouraged to judge ALL gun owners by the actions of a few lunatics. Funny how that works |
#15
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There is a video on YouTube (I do not have the link) about bleeding cluch system, it is not about MB but it may apply. The video suggests disconnecting the slave cylinder from the clutch lever and pushing the slave cylinder into its housing while the clutch peddle is dipressed and the slave cylinder bleed valve is open to get all the air out. There may still be some air trapped in the slave cylinder after the bleed valve.
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2010 ML350 Bluetec 2012 Mustang Convertible |
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