Rocket,

When you get tired of DIY, drop it off at my MB mechanic in the San Fernando Valley, then I'll drive you home in a properly sorted 2.5T.

Years ago, I had a fix-it dolt offer to fix the leak in my IP by replacing a few seals. Upshot: he destroyed the timing and ended up costing me a refurb'ed pump ($$$).

If you should ever say uncle, feel free to give me a shout.

Dana

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'91 300D 2.5 Turbo 330K
'00 VW TDI Golf, 190K
'67 BMW R50/2
'73 Norton Commando Interstate

Thanks for the offer! I would love to drive in a properly running 2.5 to see and know how she is "supposed to feel" but I don't think you realize how far away I live from the San Fernando valley! Do you know where Tehachapi is?

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1990 300D 2.5 Turbo 150k miles
1999 F250 7.3L Powerstroke 225k miles 22mpg
Intro Thread

Is there any way to re-establish this location? Anyone removed them and reinstalled them before without having their position noted? The FSM only says "observe the orientation" but doesn't say anything about getting them back in the same way..?!?

So copper washer seals are on their way, any chance that despite upsetting their positions that I'll be able to resolve the issue, or will it require a new IP to "really fix" this issue? I'm keeping my fingers crossed for the copper washers, new and properly torqued. If that doesn't resolve it, what's next?

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1990 300D 2.5 Turbo 150k miles
1999 F250 7.3L Powerstroke 225k miles 22mpg
Intro Thread

108 miles to Mr. MB Motors in Tarzana. Take you 1 1/2 hours. Get down early enough, and we'd roll back into your mountain retreat before noon ;p.

__________________
'91 300D 2.5 Turbo 330K
'00 VW TDI Golf, 190K
'67 BMW R50/2
'73 Norton Commando Interstate

If you managed to rotate the IP barrel in the pump it is not an easy fix. There is a tiny locating pin coming in from the side of the pump that engages a slot in the barrel to assure the accurate relationship of parts. You cannot screw up the plunger unless you do something unbelievably stupid involving major disassembly of the IP. The barrel, however, can lift up off its locating pin and rotate slightly while doing the delivery valve seals. Then, when the DV fitting is screwed back down it jams the barrel in the wrong position and the fueling to that cylinder is all screwed up. Some people have been able to remove the DV and lift the barrel up with a magnet and relocate it properly. Not me. Mine was jammed in place. Luckily, it was the number one barrel which is the ONLY barrel that you can access (a little) through the fuel inlet fitting and a plug in the front of the IP. You have to remove the IP from the engine to get at that plug. I also removed the side cover which gave me access to the tiny locating pin, I drove it back into position before I put the barrel back in place.

I really, really hope this is not your problem. I had no fueling whatsoever for number one cylinder. Is yours that bad?

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1987 W201 190D

Hopefully I don't have this problem. I only took cylinder #1 slotted barrel out (with a magnet), and when I reassembled the barrel, I tried to find something that indexed to the slot, but didn't see the little pin. All the rest of the clyinders I left alone as the first one looked clean and polished.

Also when I reassembled the DV, I didn't tighten them down the DV bodies hard at all figureing that the compressed oring was what was keeping the body sealed, and the anti-rotating plate kept them from unscrewing, and I didn't understand the relationship between the barrel and copper crush seal.

While I was running the engine re-checking on Saturday last week, I was getting fuel at each of the injector nuts, but the engine was burping and farting like the timing was jacked. I'm wondering if the non sealed copper seals causes signigant fuel pressure timing such that timing gets messed over.

Keep your fingers crossed for Wednesday night!

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1990 300D 2.5 Turbo 150k miles
1999 F250 7.3L Powerstroke 225k miles 22mpg
Intro Thread

They certainly need to be properly tightened to prevent internal leakage. The internal leakage will most definitely affect injection timing and quantity. Each cylinder is now receiving a different amount of fuel at a different time, so it is no wonder it runs so poorly. As to the number one barrel... If you are not certain that it is aligned properly, I might want to remove it again and assure that the pin and slot are engaged before tightening it down again. The pin comes in from the driver's side of the pump at a right angle to the shaft. It sticks into the bore a tiny amount... maybe 1/16". Probably the right way to tell that the barrel is properly engaged would be to use a depth mic and take a drop measurement from the top of the pump to the barrel and compare it to one of the barrels you didn't disturb. If you had the barrel out of position and tightened it down even a modest amount, it is possible that you pushed the pin back in its hole. The pins are installed from the side of the pump (access through the side cover) and staked into place. It's easy for the chamfer at the base of the barrel to wedge against the pin and press it back through the staking of its hole. I had my pump off the engine, so I could see all this stuff easily. I was able to use a small pin punch to tap the pin back into place and then I restaked the hole. But getting the barrel out first was a bear because it was wedged so tight against the pin.

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1987 W201 190D

So if I can get the slotted barrel out of the IP with just a magnet I probably am ok with the pin? If it is jammed in there, I should pull the side cover and try to get the pin pushed back into its original position. Sounds like a plan and thanks for the insight!

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1990 300D 2.5 Turbo 150k miles
1999 F250 7.3L Powerstroke 225k miles 22mpg
Intro Thread

Wait. Do you mean that you did not tighten the barrels to the spec of 35Nm with a torque wrench...?

__________________
Dave
Boise, ID
Check out my website photos, documents, and movies!

Correct, on the instuctions that I got with the DV seal kit, it didn't mention the "torque sequence". I tightened them by hand, and then did a 1/8 turn past hand tight with the socket and noticed that the oring was fully engaged in the DV oring gland and put the anti-rotate plate back on. After running even worse, I spent 3-4 hours late Saturday night where I found all the refrences to the proper toruque sequence. I didn't want to try to reseat the copper that is already in the DVs so I ordered new ones that will be here tommorrow, hopefully I'll put them in tommorrow night and I'll find out if I have a much bigger problem.

Its funny because I work with a lot of rocket related plumbing and hardware, and I'm always haveing to get on the technicians for torqueing the crap out of a Mil spec AN fitting that is o-ring sealed. Quite often when an oring is used you have to be very careful to not over torque the fitting as it will distort the oring or the fitting, especially if the fitting is Aluminum or softer Stainless.

I didn't realize when I was putting these DV back together that the seating of the copper was critical... now I know!

__________________
1990 300D 2.5 Turbo 150k miles
1999 F250 7.3L Powerstroke 225k miles 22mpg
Intro Thread

If it is jammed in there, you'll have to get it out somehow before fixing the pin. If it's really jammed and you can't get it out with a magnet, you'll have to take the pump off the engine. Fortunately it's the number one barrel you are dealing with. On the front of the pump is a threaded core plug. You can remove that plug and the fuel inlet fitting and between the two access points get small tools in there to wedge against the outside of the barrel. (Don't worry, the outside is not a critical surface.) Prying a little at a time you should be able to get the barrel out. Hopefully it won't be nearly this bad because you didn't tighten down the delivery valve holder too much.

Good luck!

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1987 W201 190D

Yup Jon, that was exactly my problem!

How about an update to an adventurous weekend?

Jon L, you were dead on! The barrel that sits below part 7g in the DV stack up inside the IP, was misaligned (rotated). I pulled the first two DVs out, and I could easily remove DVbarrel #2 with just a magnet, it floated right out. #1 barrel was jammed in place just like you experienced.


I pulled the side cover off of the IP, and also removed the fuel-in line banjo fitting.


With a small flat head screw driver, and the magnet, I was able to wiggle the #1 barrel out.


No pin found!

After getting the barrel out, I searched for the pin, and sure enough it had been compressed into the pump body making itself invisible. I used a small punch and a mirror to get everything lined up and then tapped the pin until it popped out ~.063” just like you said.


Tricky to find the back side of indexing pin, had to use a mirrior and strong flashlight.


Same shot but with the pin showing!


As I reinstalled the bits, I dipped everything in fresh diesel to make sure it was as clean as possible.


I then used the magnet to drop the barrel back into the IP and would rotate the barrel up and down until I felt it slide all the way down, and it is deceiving because the barrel in the wrong index position is only .063” higher then it otherwise should be, so it is really hard to tell visually unless you have a seated and an unseated barrel side by side to look at. I had to use a dental pick to keep the barrel in place while I pulled the magnet out.


Balancing Act to reinstall DV

I installed all new copper crush washers on the rest of the DVs, and performed the three step torque process. I then buttoned everything back up, bled the air out of the lines and started the car. She ran as good as she did before I started to “tune” everything up, so at least this last 4 hours wasn’t yet another step backwards. She ran OK, but while cold she still shutters and farts every 5 seconds or so, and it doesn’t feel like a full on miss, but it’s almost like the timing or fuel quantity is just slightly off, so that it affects only every 4-5 firing.

With everything back in, and the car running OK, I decide that it was ok to drive her for the weekend road trip to my wife’s great aunt’s funeral in Modesto, from Tehachapi CA, which is like a 500 mile round trip. Like a total dork, I don’t pack any emergency tools.

The old gal did good on the freeway and once we get off the freeway in Modesto, she well warmed up and with 250 miles just finished and was running smooth with no burps or farts, and no leaking fuel. I patted myself on the back, thought about what an awesome mechanic I am, and we blissfully drove all over Modesto on Saturday and Sunday.

We left my wife’s grandparents house about 2pm on Sunday and head for home. I drove for the first few hours and just as we passed through Fresno, I decided to pull over to let my wife drive the rest of the way. As I slowed down to get off the freeway my heart sunk. The engine was shuddering badly from one cylinder completely missing every rev. I instantly smelled diesel as we slowed down, and I was amazed that at 75mph, I couldn’t tell anything was wrong with the car. I was probably driving more then 20-30 minutes with the one cylinder missing.
As I opened the hood, the diesel smell was overwhelming, and there was dripping diesel everywhere. The #2 diesel injector hard-line was squirting diesel up onto the hood and all over the drivers side of the engine compartment, and on each revolution the engine is shaking really bad. I go into the gas station’s quikimart, and buy a rip off crap mini-crescent wrench for $7. I tighten the #2 hard-line nut, but it does nothing. I kill the car, and take the hard line nut off, and I see the chamfered swedge fitting is busted clean off the end off the hard line. Just like my #3 hard-line did 2 weeks before.

I called the Fresno MB dealer and found out their parts department is closed on the weekends. I called a couple of junkyards I found listed, but none of them answered their phones. I looked up Fresno Pick-a-part and found that there was one about 5 miles away and that they were open until 4:30pm and it was 4:10! We limped the car over to the best side of Fresno, and I got to the gate were the guy told me I couldn’t go in with my sandals on, ya know “safety policy”. I run back to the car, where my wife with my 1 year old and 3 year old are really happy with me and I cram on my funeral dress shoes without socks (I have shorts and t-shirt on) and run back to the gate, and pay my $2 entry fee.


My kids playing in the Fresno pick and pull parking lot.

I ask were the MB section is, and the guy laughs, and said that there is no knowing what is in the yard at any given time. He then tells me they are closing in 6 minutes, and that the back half of the yard is the “import” section.

The yard is split into two halves, a Premium section (post 1992) and regular section (pre1992) as I run up to the Premium section, the yard worker locks the gate and tells me the premium lot is now closed, but then tells me he’ll give me 15 minutes in the regular section. I try to beg and plead, and just about pulled out a $20 to see if he’ll let me run through the premium lot real quick, but he quickly leaves his side of the gate. I run through the import section, and was actually amazed at how good I was at picking out a number of MB just from their front end shape and the occasional head light or turn signals. I found 6-8 W126, W123, W124, and W202 chassis, but they were all gas. Some of the gas fuel injection lines looked identical to the diesel ones but on the gas models the IP side is a male swedged fitting, and I only have enough time to pull one or two hard-lines before they kick me out.

I run all the way to the back corner hoping to find a 1987, 1990, or 1991 diesel W124 chassis, but I knew my odds were super slim. Then I see it, a totally trashed out W123 with a 6 cylinder diesel. Using my only tool, the gas station mini crescent wrench, I take two of the hard injector lines off, but as I take them off, I think to myself, there is NO-Way these lines will fit, because the hard lines on this 617 engine is like 2 times the diameter of the hard-lines on my 602, and also quite a bit shorter as there is no big intake on the 617 engines to have zig zag around. I take off the #5 and #6 hard-lines, which were the longest 2, and run up to the front of the yard to pay for my precious find. It costs me a whopping $2.17.

I lift the hood of my car and start to get set to replace the line, when a leaving yard worker comes over and points to a sign that says “no working on your car in the Parking lot.”

My wife and 2 kids all even happier pile into the car and I limp the car over to a jack in the box that I can see its sign near the freeway.
I get there, send the wife and kiddos inside for some milkshakes, and I get busy.

__________________
1990 300D 2.5 Turbo 150k miles
1999 F250 7.3L Powerstroke 225k miles 22mpg
Intro Thread

Jack in the box parking lot

I try to remove the #2 cylinder DV nut, but I can’t fit the cheap crescent wrench jaws in-between the 1 and 3 DV nut. I ask the gas station lady where the closest Car parts store is, and it turns out there was an Autozone about a mile away. I leave the wife and kids, limp the mile away and buy a 14mm and 17mm flare nut wrench and two sets of pliers.
I get back to the parking lot at Jack’s and park around the side hoping that no one will complain or kick me out, and with my dress shoes and no socks still on, and me all dirty and greasy from the junk yard I start working while diesel drips off the hood into my hair and onto my face. Its also like 90+ degrees out and I’ve been running around the junk yard, so I’m not feeling to good about anything.


My wife was laughing at my white trashiness while she took this picture of me working in the Jack N the Box side parking lot.

But then, my luck changes and I’m dancing in the parking lot, elated to find out that the 617 hard-line nuts fit both the injector body and the DV body despite the old hard lines being a 17mm nut, and the 92 602 hard-lines being a 14mm nut. The ID female threads match!!! Now my only one problem between keeping my diesel from the donation block, is that the older style hard-lines are SOOOO much harder to bend, and even with my new fancy plyers with “super control grip” I can’t get enough leverage to budge the thicker hard-line. I found a near by curb with a smooth radius concrete corner, and found that if I stood on the nut and I could bend the tube over the rounded concrete corner.

After running back and forth between the car and the curb about 20 times, I got the hard-line shape close enough to tighten the two nuts, albeit not anywhere close to the original line run shape. Before I tightened the injector side, I turned the car over a few times to hopefully purge out any nastiness or blockages that might be in the hard-line from the junk yard. I then tightened the nut and used the cheap crescent wrench after both nuts where on like a lever to bend the hard-line away from all other objects so that it wouldn’t rub on anything while the car was running. I started the car up, and after burping the air through she ran smooth! I whopped out a Might HOO-RAH!


Funky Bending job, but hey it works!

I washed up in Jack’s bathroom as best I could, and we were on the road again by 6:30 with the misses reminding me about how much she loves "this" car. We made it all the way home by 8:00pm and I’m feeling good!


Ready to roll out!

Looking at the failed hard line, and the back up 617 hard line, I can’t believe how wimpy the 602 line is compared to the 617 line. The 617 line is STOUT! I took some pics of them side by side, but it’s not until you try to bend both of them one after the other, that you realize how beefy the older ones are.


At home on the bench


Close up of the two hard lines, 617 above and 602 below. Notice that the 617 flange reinforces the hard line .5" up the line from where the nut seats. Too bad the 602 lines don't have that reinforcement sleeve, I don't think I would have failed two of them if they had!

So moral of the story, don’t run your diesels with out properly support hard line brackets. This is has bit me twice in the last month, with two failed hard lines. I blew off replacing the plastic clips right away as I rationalized the original plastic support clips were all shattered and brittle before I started working on the car. I kept intending to replace them as a “when I get around to it” type of priority, but I’ve learned that you need to have them on as soon as you intend to drive your car if you want your recent repair to last! Also have a spare 617 hard line incase your wimpy 602 ones fail!!

I still have the slightly rough idle that I had before I messed up the DV pump seals while trying to fix the leaking DVs.
NextI’m going to try checking the timing as suggested by GSXR, the vacuum system for leaks, the Alda fitting, and also get the new set of inejectors pop tested with new nozzles. If I can work out this stuttering and hesitation that I currently experience when the car is cold, I think I may still be able to get my wife on board with keeping the car. Thanks again for everyone’s help and responses, and hopefully I’ll have another post about what I figure out in the next few days with out nearly as much drama!!

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1990 300D 2.5 Turbo 150k miles
1999 F250 7.3L Powerstroke 225k miles 22mpg
Intro Thread

After reading your post, I think you should buy your wife a nice reliable car that doesn't have so many problems. Spending hundreds of dollars in maintenance (not to mention the time) might not be worth the strain. Keep your projects for yourself to drive. Just a thought.

Wise thought and I appriciate that, but if thats the case, and it might be, I'll be selling the 300D and keeping the F250. She's been driving the truck while I sort out the 300D, but she backed into a car in a parking lot last week, so she now hates the truck too.

We looked at late model Passat TDIs but don't want to spend the +$10k on one. Here is my current 300D squawk list:

1. Sunvisor Clip replace (one broken)
2. Electirc Cooling fan (front of the radiator doesn't turn on)
3. Injector nozzle replace and pop test
4. Injector hard line clips and support rail re-install
5. Replace leaking valve cover grommet
6. Replace Fan clutch
7. Replace water pump (already purchased)
8. Flush radiator
9. Replace fan belt
10. Get engine to run smoothly
11. clean out the alda fitting
12. Vacuum leak check
13. Adjust tranny shift (shift hard)
14. Install new hood pad (already bought)
15. Front End has a shimmy (thinking threw a wheel weight)
16. Turbo by-pass mod
17. Install new glow plugs (already bought)

After making this list, that Passat is starting to sound better and better...hmmm

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1990 300D 2.5 Turbo 150k miles
1999 F250 7.3L Powerstroke 225k miles 22mpg
Intro Thread