Oil Filter Change Interval w/Long Drain Intervals
 

Yes, yes...I've done searches, read lots of oil threads...

I'm convinced of the merits of long drain intervals, have had oil analysis done, etc., etc... But am I correct that virtually NO ONE is recommending long intervals between filter changes? That is, IF you go for a long drain interval with a good synthetic (say 10,000 miles or longer), you should still stick with the MB recommended filter change at 5,000? Does anyone wish to make the case that you can let the filter go longer than 5,000?

I think the duration of an oil filter depends on its quality and the condition of the engine. Also, the type of driving and enviromental conditions. I trust NAPA (WIX) filters to 7,500 miles. I think Mobil 1 filters to about 10K. Puralators can be on par with WIX. I hear good things about the new Amsiol filters. I haven't made a decision on my 240D as to how far I will run the oil and filter. I only have 1K on this oil change and its an AutoRX flush. So far the oil looks clean. THe oil that came out was black. I did use NAPA 15W-40. I have a rinse cycle of 3K and another flush and rinse of 3K each for the Auto RX. After that and see if any oil leaks, then I'll be looking at synthetic oils.
Tom

I'm a fan of long drain intervals for some vehicles, but my understanding from Used Oil Analysis (UOA) of the 616/617 engines (240d/300d...the old guys) was that they soot loaded the oil too much and you had to run a factory (3k-4k) drain interval.

I'm happy to hear 75S is running 1k with clear oil...but also shocked, my 240d runs relatively clean (smokes only on real hard throttle) but I get dirty oil right after a change.

The 601/2/3's and especially the 606 are a different story and are the ones where you can do a longer OCI because you're not fighting soot.

I have not had excessive soot loading on my 617 motors with Rotella synthetic at 7500 miles per UOA. I haven't tried to stretch past that point yet because that point was the end of fall and I didn't want to hold off the oil change to the middle of the winter.

I have cut open dozens of used oil filters and have never seen one that was any where close to "capacity." And the only ones that came anywhere close were on high mileage engines that had just been switched to synthetic oil.

I think that is because of the Nominal Micron level the available filters.
Data concerning the Full Flow Section. Purolator 35 (my data from their Email),(the rest of the data from DeliveryValve) WIX 32, Mann 27, Fram 25, Mahle 22, Baldwin 18.
It would take something extremely bad happening in an Engine or some serious neglect to plug up a filter.
I do not think any of the deal with the finer particles of soot.

If you read some atricles on By-pass Oil filtration you will find that all of the Full Flow Oil filter pass a lot of wear causing particles.

They make a "fleece" filter for the newer Mercedes that is supposed to be used with extended Oil changes.

From what I have read concerning extended Oil changes on commercial vehicles they are using ad on Bypass Oil filters to achieve it and the are doing the Oil analysis also to detect other Engine problems like bearings going out and Coolent contamination.
So for Commercial use the extend Oil change with Oil analysis is cost effective.

For my Car the cost of an Oil analysis is greater then the cost of an Oil change so it is more cost effective for me to change the Oil.
So unless I just get curious or I believe something is going on in the Engine I will not be doing any Oil analysis.
Even though I have a bypass Oil Filter on my car I am not attempting an extended Oil change.

Once a year
 

My '96 E300D (W210, OM606NA) doesn't get driven a lot (about 8,000 miles a year) so I change the oil (Mobil-1 5W-40) and filter (Bosch, Hengst, Mann, whatever FastLane happens to have) once a year. The George Murphy oil tests show very low levels of contaminants including soot. This is to be expected, of course, since the car and its original engine have only 261,000 miles on them.

The OM606NA is not known for either high power or best fuel economy (the turbo version is better) but we just returned from a short trip, got 29 MPG at 65 MPH with a 17 foot canoe atop the car. Additionally, wind effects (as felt in the steering/handling) were less on the 210 than on previous cars, Benz and non-Benz, that have carried this canoe. A satisfying experience. :)

Jeremy

I did check during lunch. It is getting black. I am on a rinse cycle. Although, I do expect a deisel to get dirtier sooner than a gasser engine.
Tom

It will be black almost instantly, even in a 60x. There is about a half-quart of the black stuff in your oil cooler and other places when you change your fluid, will make your oil look somewhat dirty at first start.

After 300 miles on my fresh change of Rotella 15w40, it's arguably lighter than the dark as night stuff that drained out after 3,000 miles...including 2 quarts of make up oil. I'm sure at my next fill up when I check oil it will be dark as night though!

WD8CDH, you have me thinking about trying a longer drain interval on Rotella Syn. A used oil analysis is always interesting, especially when I have no idea about the mileage of the motor.

..if only changing oil on the 616 wasn't the quickest and easiest of any car I've ever owned...and the W123 has so many great spots to rest your tools and your beer under the hood...

Changing the filter more often than the filter seems like a false economy to me.

I'm new to diesel, and I'm amazed at how black the oil is, and how hard it is to clean the oil collection bin after a diesel oil change. What is this "rinse cycle" you are doing and are there any good threads you can point me to learn about this?

Also, what synthetic is everyone that is doing long change intervals advocating? A co-worker with a Dodge cummins, swears by Amsoil, any other fans out there that believe it is work the price and long life claims?

It depends on the year and engine.
On the 617.952s and engines that use the same filter (the full flow section of the filters); the WIX has a 32 Nominal Micron filtration rating and the Purolator is slightly worse at 35 Nominal Microns (per their Email answer to my question).
The 2 filters that filter out smaller particles (again in the full flow section) are the Baldwin P-102 at 18 Nominal Microns and the Mahle at 22 Nominal Microns.
The smaller the Nominal Micron Number the better the filtration.
WIX has a site where you can look up the WIX filter and the have the Filtration Rating of their filters listed for most of their filters.
http://www.wixfilters.com/filterlookup/index.asp

This was after a R&R. I pulled the oil cooler and put new oil lines to it. I also, took off the oil filter housing and put on a new housing to block gasket. Yes, my oil was black as coal, then. Nasty stuff.
As far as rinse, I am using AutoRX. It is an oil 'additive'. It is suppose to slowly clean your engine out. You can check 'Bob is The Oil Guy' forum for reviews. It is suppose to clean out varnish and even clean the compression rings.
As far as synthetic oils, Amsoil has a good reputation. I have used sone of their products. I haven't used them enough to state good or bad or indifferent. They do have an extensive line. I have used Amaco Ulimate( way back in the 80s), Castrol Syntec, Mobil 1, Torco (transmission 2000 Ford Contour SVT), Shaffer, Pennzoil, Amsoil and Royal Purple (240D PS Pump). Most of these for engien oil was for a '96 Ford Contour and the '00 STV. I am a bit new to diesel motors, so I can directly comment on oils for diesel motors.
Having said that, first make sure you oil is diesel rated. Also, there are different diesel oil ratings. The newer diesel, ie MB Blue Tech and other emmision controlled, need and oil with less zinc in it. The zinc will mess up the sensors and filters. Our older diesels can use the zinc. Some motor heads will use diesel rated oil in their push rod engines, because it contains zinc. I think the rating you will need to look for is CH4 or something like that. Amsoil, Mobil 1, Shaffer 9000 should have oil rated for that. Also, Valvoiline (Also NAPA brand), Shell Rotella (semi-synthetic ??) amongst others.
There is a lot of debate as to true synthetic or not. Basically, most purist consider a true synthetic as a polyester derivative. Also, a non-true (for lack of a better word) synthetic as a hydrocracked or ultra refined dino oil derivative. Amsoil, Mobil 1 (used to be, but not sure now), Neo, I think ELF and Total, also the German made Castrol Syntec are true synthetic. I know Pennzoil, Castrol, Shell Rotella are hydrocracked. I haven't noticed any difference in performance. My Ford Contours like Pennzoil Platinum and Castrol Syntech. Also, the Shaffer 7000 (synthetic blend) ran well.
Tom

Personally I'm using Rotella Syn 5W40. Changing it out every 5K with a new filter. I'm happy with it.

Does anyone have clear oil after 5k of diesel time? I'm just curious if you flushed and cleaned your engine really well, and then kept your oil changes up if one would be able to clean out the oil systems and keep clean oil for 5k or more. Any opinions, or will it always be black as ink by merit of being diesel?

Too Many other worries
 

Even if you were to install some sort of device that allowed you to drain the
Oil Cooler and Lines at oil change...Diesel oil is Always going to contain MORE
Soot and other combustion byproducts due to the High Compression,Etc.

A separate Bypass type oil filter will not even make a dent in the "Blackness".

Crazy Man that I am,I run Synthetic(High Zinc or additive) and change the Oil
and Filter EVERY 3000 miles.[Reasoning:Anything other than clean lube acts as a "Grit-like" Non-Approved Friction Modifier (To the Detriment of Longevity) ]

Ask Yourself...
1.'Just how HOT does the Turbocharger get the Lube Oil when you're Blissfully romping around at WOT ?
2.What "Kills" Lube Oil additives...(HEAT?)

My standard formula is Rotella 15W40 dino every 5K miles with a new filter and tire rotation at the same time.

I did run ONE batch of Rotella synthetic for a full 10K over this past winter to ease cold starts. Thought about changing the filter at 5K but decided to just let it go and watch for trouble. Never saw any. Back to dino for the summer; I've read all the miracle cure stories but my engine seems much happier with the standard thicker oil in it. Not to mention how fast I was having to add the thinner synthetic as make-up quarts to compensate for how much faster it can leak out than the thicker stuff.

If I were in the habit of running 10K synthetic oil cycles on a routine basis, I'd be very tempted to change the filter out at 5K anyway (or whatever halfway through my extended cycle was) just for the simple reason that synthetic oil doesn't stay any cleaner than dino oil across the same number of miles, it's just designed to handle being dirty better. Filters are so cheap compared to the cost of the oil anyway that I think it'd be cheap psychological insurance to change them even if there's no technical benefit.

That said, I've run 10K on the same filter before and can't produce any hard evidence of noticeable wear/damage OR the lack thereof beyond what I am more accustomed to seeing. I think over the life of the engine, the damage you'd do by running filters 10K, IF ANY, would be negligible compared to the cumulative effect of that many miles of wear that couldn't have been prevented even with magic pixie oil.

..........seems impossible to me..........;)

Long Oil change intervals???
 

I am actually surprised that many folks are even considering long oil change intervals. I change my oil in all my vehicles at 5000Km (3000Mi) intervals and consider that to be as far as I would want to go. I sure wouldn't want to buy a pristine Benz which had been babied with 10 -15 K oil changes. Frequent Oil changes are your best mechanic and go a long way to making your car go a long way. At $50-75 per change with filter what are we really looking at saving. Just my opinion. Cheers Dan

Not saving anything, but my factory owners manual recommends an interval of 5,000 miles. And I figure if 1986 oil was good for 5K in this engine, as per the factory, then 2009 oil is bound to be good for at least that.

So you probably don't believe in the science of Oil Analysis. :rolleyes:

It depends on the vehicle. A 617 Benz yes, 10,000 plus miles is too far. If your talking about a pristine 2005-2007 CDI/BlueTEC, a 13,000 mile oil change intervals are recommended or 2008-2009 all MBs have a 10,000 mile oil change interval. In fact the recommended MB 229.51 spec oil for CDI/BlueTEC diesels is formulated with a Long Life additive package in that if you change it much sooner, you actually will cause your engine to wear sooner.



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Oil changes
 

I work for a large hospital as a maintenance supervisor I have under my purview 6.5 MW of diesel generators for which I am responsible for the maintenance. I actually do oil analysis on a regular basis for these units. The cost of oil analysis is in the neighborhood of $25 a pop , when you are looking at engines that have a 200L oil capacity each then it makes sense to spend a few bucks to determine the condition. I use Shell rotella 15-40 in my Benz and other vehicles. The cost of the oil is slightly more than the cost of the testing. So yes I will continue to change my oil at 3000 Mi intervals. I do believe in the science of oil analysis but the economy is just not that conclusive. Cheers Dan

I did one oil analysis after the oil had been in there 7500 miles. The soot load was at 0.8% and all the other trace elements were WELL below acceptable levels. And, according to the folks at AVLube, the additive package of Delvac 1 is going to last a long, long time. So, based on that one analysis, there's really no reason I couldn't go 15,000 miles or more. (Of course, I'll probably chicken out and change it at 10,000). As a one shot deal, the analysis was well worth it. From what I understand, the value of ongoing analysis is NOT to confirm over and over again the change interval, but rather to detect new problems that are emerging, and early enough to do something about them.

I suppose that the cotton in the By-pass section of a new filter might absorb somethina extra till saturated on my Engine.
(Speaking of the Full Flow section of the Oil Filter.) However, after that a old used filter actually filters out finer particles than a new Filter does. So an old Filter will filter better up to the point where it becomes plugged up enough to restrict the flow and have an effect on the Oil Pressure.

Big Trucking Companies like Ryder were using Oil Analysis before this extended Oil Change idea became popular.
They were doing it to detect Bearing failures and Coolant leaks (most often from the Oil Coolers) so they could catch them before the very expensive Engines were destroyed. It is an accepted cost of doing business that has proven save money for the reasons stated alone.

The Extend Oil Drain idea had to be proved and it has been.
For commercial purposes it means that they buy less Oil and Filters, have to despose of less oil and used Oil Filters (the. do not get the free Oil dump at the local Autozone they have to pay), they have less records to keep concerning where they got rid of the old Oil and Filters, and it saves the labor charge of doing unecessary Oil changes and the vehicle stays on the road making money insted of in the shop havening an Oil Change.


So for us common folks with free labor, free old oil and filter disopsal, no waste disposel records to keep track of for the EPA and the cost of the Oil Analysis compared to just changing the Oil makes good sense.

what would excessive soot loading numbers are we going by? delvac advocates 100K in trucks that's 5x the normal so i'm just curious what levels of soot loading is the limit on 617 or who come up with it?

MB gives 2% as the limit (I guess trying to accommodate the wide variety of different oils that people will use). But Mobil Delvac 1 (or Turbo Diesel Truck) can handle 4%.

Which one?

We did it for the marine engines in the navy too, but with the cars I would rather spend the money on fresh oil and filter..just makes economical sense to me.

oil stuff
 

BC Children's Hospital.
Maybe we are just wierd Canadians.
Cheers Dan

Cool; me, RCH/Biomed Eng.

Yes we are, and rather proud of it!:D

Is that Suburban of yours diesel? I would love to convert Yukon Denali to Duramax! (sorry, don't mean to hijack the thread)