Brand new to forum and need HELP! Puzzling 617 situation...got any ideas?

[JBeechcraft]

Hello there to all who read. I'm new to this forum but I can see there is a wealth of information based on experience and decades of knowledge of which I could use a little. This may seem like a no-brainer to some of you guys, but I'm stumped. I own an '81 300TDT (diesel wagon) and I've become familiar with that one and have something to use as a reference point for the car in question. Now, the car in question is a recently purchased '82 300TD sedan. This car is in pretty amazing shape. Gorgeous interior and exterior. Super low in rust and looks great. The previous owner MUST have loved this car as he spent a fortune on it in many many ways. The P.O. just purchased a new Mercedes Diesel SUV and sold me this one for $1,500. Can't beat it. What brought this car to my recent attention was a banging that happened on the downshift from what seemed to be a 2-->1st gear. After careful review of similar issues on this forum, I've decided to dive into the vacuum areas and I must say, I've learned a great deal so far. It's rather pleasurable and fun to learn about these things and they are far from intimidating once you get started.

This car seems to have about 97K miles on her. Most of the documentation seems to support this as well (i.e. 1997 oil change at 57K miles etc.). Now, looking at the vacuum pump, it just doesn't look like any of the pictures that I've seen for any permutation of an '82 W123 617 application like I have. The pump itself is a Pierburg and from looking down at it from above I can see that there is a vacuum line that goes to the brake booster as expected AND there seems to be some sort of vacuum line to the turbo area. There are two smaller hard lines that I assume are vacuum that go to the tach amplifier on the driver's fender and the other line goes to a mess of T's around the brake booster - but I'll not get into to much detail about those lines yet as I'm not 100% sure they actually come from the pump and that they are vacuum.

Not understanding how my vacuum pump could look so different from my '81 and so unlike all the pics I've seen on the internet, I began to look further and thought it might be a good idea to take the id numbers off the motor to verify the correctness of the motor. Hmmm...the 617 is there, but the other numbers were either never pressed in or were shaved off in some fashion. In toyota forums, the guys talk about factory replacement motors that had shaved numbers and only the first couple of numbers to id the motor. I wonder if this was the case with this motor. Next puzzling piece is that this car does NOT have an EGR, nor a thermal vacuum valve (thermovalve) where one of the vacuum lines from the cluster on top of the valve cover goes. Instead, there's what appears to be a factory metal plug in it's place on that vacuum switching device. I just can't seem to make sense of this. Following the vacuum diagrams for '82 300TD's that have different vacuum pumps and EGRs, I was able to at least re-route and hook up the vacuum lines to what I thought was correct. Long story short, the flaring problem is dramatically reduced and the downshift banging is no longer. I still wonder what the heck kind of situation I have with this unidentifiable Pierburg pump and lack of EGR and associated plumbing. Sure could use some advice and help here and I thank you in advance! If I can, I'll try to post some pics so that you'll know what I'm talking about if this forum will permit me to do so. Thank you!

[Shawn T. W.]

Oh Oh, this sounds like one for Jimmy!

[pelon]

i think that hard plastic line from the vacuum pump to the "turbo" actually should go to the air intake. it is the exhaust from the vacuum pump. i think.
roberto

ps. where are you? what is a 300TD sedan? that doesn't make sense to me.

[tbomachines]

Originally Posted by Shawn T. W.

Oh Oh, this sounds like one for Jimmy!

Exactly my thoughts 2 seconds in

Welcome to the forum Shawn! Unfortunately I don't have the knowledge to help you but I'm sure some of the guys will. Btw, a word of warning--using the letters "TDT" results in some interestingly photoshopped responses

[JBeechcraft]

The cars I have are:

1) 1981 300TD TurboDiesel (wagon). 5 cylinder 617 motor.
2) 1982 D TurboDiesel (sedan). 5 cylinder 617 motor.

Any ideas on the vacuum pump (Pierburg) and the lack of EGR?

[kerry]

You have to understand the culture here. To refer to a TDT or a DT is to commit a mortal sin.(It's TD or D. The presence or lack of the turbo is determined by the year) You must pay penance or face the eternal wrath of Jimmy.

That vacuum system looks cobbled together to me. The pump is an early pump which I have only seen vent into the top of the air cleaner. Yours appears to vent into something below the air cleaner. I was under the impression that the early pumps did not exist on turbo engines. Learn something every day.
Early turbos did not have EGR's. I was under the impression that the non-EGR models were 116's. Again, learn something new every day.

[TylerH860]

Are you a beechcraft fan?

[JBeechcraft]

Since the numbers on the block only show 617 and nothing else, is it likely that this is a factory replacement motor? I just don't get it yet. I still can't identify the vacuum pump and yes, what you're seeing is a "cobbled up" vacuum clutter. It doesn't look anything like that now. I used the schematic and re-routed the hoses to where I think they should go and resolved many of the unpleasant transmission issues. There were way too many orfices and vacuum dampers just stuck where anyone thought they should go and lots of home-made connectors, but it's all corrected as far as I know now. Still too slow and "bangy" going into reverse, which I suppose is the B2 issue which will come later. I'm concerned about the huge order of new parts I just placed for this car if the motor is not from this car. I'm confident that if if Mr. Whunter reads this thread, he'll put me straight. Thanks to all for the help so far. I'm still shaking my head, but appreciative to all for any knowledge that you care to bestow upon me and others as I continue to learn as much about this car as possible.

JBeechcraft

[tbomachines]

Originally Posted by JBeechcraft

Still too slow and "bangy" going into reverse, which I suppose is the B2 issue which will come later. JBeechcraft

I don't think that is the B2. Your B2 controls the 1-2 shift, where it will either flare badly, not shift at all, etc. The reverse is the B3 band, which IIRC you can adjust with a bolt on the side of the transmission.

[kerry]

Originally Posted by JBeechcraft

Since the numbers on the block only show 617 and nothing else, is it likely that this is a factory replacement motor? I just don't get it yet. I still can't identify the vacuum pump and yes, what you're seeing is a "cobbled up" vacuum clutter. It doesn't look anything like that now. I used the schematic and re-routed the hoses to where I think they should go and resolved many of the unpleasant transmission issues. There were way too many orfices and vacuum dampers just stuck where anyone thought they should go and lots of home-made connectors, but it's all corrected as far as I know now. Still too slow and "bangy" going into reverse, which I suppose is the B2 issue which will come later. I'm concerned about the huge order of new parts I just placed for this car if the motor is not from this car. I'm confident that if if Mr. Whunter reads this thread, he'll put me straight. Thanks to all for the help so far. I'm still shaking my head, but appreciative to all for any knowledge that you care to bestow upon me and others as I continue to learn as much about this car as possible.

JBeechcraft

The vacuum pump on your engine looks identical to the one I have on my 79 300SD. I don't see a reason to think it's a replacement motor at this point.

[lietuviai]

A factory replacement engine would have a metal tag riveted to the front of the engine. The engine is very likely from a 116 body 300SD. The yellowish vacuum pump line should normally be running from a nipple on the intake elbow.
There should be a circular date code on the front of the head that could give you an idea of the vintage of the engine. You might find it under a layer of grease.

[JBeechcraft]

Getting closer! I am a Beechcraft fan! Wouldn't the fact that this motor is now sounding more like a 78-79ish 300sd in an '82 300d point in the direction of a replacement motor? I really wonder why the rest of the 617 numbers are not there, perhaps ground off at a junk yard or something? The amber/yellowish vacuum line does go to a nipple on the intake elbow. If this turns out to be a '78-79 300sd, what is the general concensus about the reliability of this motor. Should I stick it out with this car or part ways with it and move on? It is in beautiful shape. I'm not sure where to go for a vacuum diagram and Lord knows that I've looked at everyone I can find on the internet and nothing but close approximations.

Thanks guys for the help so far. The mystery will be solved soon, I'm confident.

JBeechcraft

[kerry]

No substantial differences between a 116 motor and later motors. MB did have problems with soft cam lobes on early turbo models I think but that issue should have been resolved many years ago in a recall.

[lietuviai]

It has slightly less hp than the later engines but no less reliable. It should be a good bet to stick with it.

[mytmousemalibu]

Sorry for the off-topic JBeechcraft, since your a Beech fan, as Tyler asked, are you from Wichita, KS? I was in a rush home friday and remember a 300TD, we were going the same way! I was in the rough 300SD if it was you!