Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > Mercedes-Benz Tech Information and Support > Diesel Discussion

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16  
Old 06-26-2009, 09:58 PM
Diesel911's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Long Beach,CA
Posts: 51,250
The only instructions for the use of the Fuel Injection Pump Locking pin in the Factor Service Manual is to lock the IP after it has been previously removed from the Engine. And, to be used as an aid when you insert the IP back into the Engine so that the Drive Gear up front does not move.

The FSM has no instructions for the use of the IP Locking Pin to time the IP if it has been in service and is still on the Engine, it appears to be a tool for removal and re-installation.
So if try to use it to time the IP on the Engine you will have to invent your own instructions to do so.

Also I believe the IP Locking Pin would only get you close and you would need to Drip Time anyway as it does not compensate for Timing Gear/Chain wear/Stretch.

__________________
84 300D, 82 Volvo 244Gl Diesel
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 06-26-2009, 10:26 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: chicago area, illinois
Posts: 281
so what do u guys suggest i do then? im new to all this stuff, i just want to kno if my ip is timed properly. and if its not ill take it from there.
__________________
1985 mercedes benz 300D turbo diesel
1998 VW GTI VR6
1996 VW GTI 2.0
1999 saab 9-3 turbo
1987 300sdl (sold)
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 06-26-2009, 11:41 PM
Diesel911's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Long Beach,CA
Posts: 51,250
Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboSDL View Post
so what do u guys suggest i do then? im new to all this stuff, i just want to kno if my ip is timed properly. and if its not ill take it from there.
I am not sure what to say as there is no easy quick check that I know of. I had a drip tube for over 1 year before I finally pushed myself to do it.
If there had been an easier way that worked I would have used it myself and would be happy to share that info.
Unfortunately if you are doing it yourself and you do not have that electrical equipment to do the job the Drip Timing Method is what is left.

I think the best possible way is to read and how to do the Drip Timing Method (buy or make a drip tube from an old used Fuel Injection Hard Line).
I would also read some threads were Members have had trouble with using the Drip Timing Method.

Next is to allow enough time so that when you do the actual Drip Timing you are not rushed.
Have your parts and tools ready before hand.

It is a skill you have to learn. You will have to decide if you want to take the job on or not.
__________________
84 300D, 82 Volvo 244Gl Diesel
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 06-26-2009, 11:56 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: chicago area, illinois
Posts: 281
it sounds like adjusting the 85 pump when its on the car with the pin is somthing many people arent familer with doing.

I think its def possible, at school on the bigger cat motors i think the detroit series 60 and maybe the cummins motors use the same type of adjustment where u put a pin in the back of the flywheel and you can adjust the valves and time the injectors. so i would think that it should be there for other than R and R of the pump.

where can u get this tool and whats it called. on the big rig diesels i mentioned above we just used a pos average size screwdriver and stuck it in the hole and did our timing adjustments and it was fine.
__________________
1985 mercedes benz 300D turbo diesel
1998 VW GTI VR6
1996 VW GTI 2.0
1999 saab 9-3 turbo
1987 300sdl (sold)
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 06-27-2009, 12:04 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: chicago area, illinois
Posts: 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Carlton View Post
The problem is that the pin doesn't "slip in". It's got a slot that's about the width of a screwdriver and, if it's not perfectly aligned with the notch, it goes right on past.

I gave up with that tool........$60. down the tubes.


did u try using a screwdriver? it might work i mean all its doing is showing u what the time is at on the crank dampner right? so y does it need to be a special mercedes part?
__________________
1985 mercedes benz 300D turbo diesel
1998 VW GTI VR6
1996 VW GTI 2.0
1999 saab 9-3 turbo
1987 300sdl (sold)
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 06-27-2009, 12:02 PM
Diesel911's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Long Beach,CA
Posts: 51,250
Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboSDL View Post
it sounds like adjusting the 85 pump when its on the car with the pin is somthing many people arent familer with doing.

I think its def possible, at school on the bigger cat motors i think the detroit series 60 and maybe the cummins motors use the same type of adjustment where u put a pin in the back of the flywheel and you can adjust the valves and time the injectors. so i would think that it should be there for other than R and R of the pump.

where can u get this tool and whats it called. on the big rig diesels i mentioned above we just used a pos average size screwdriver and stuck it in the hole and did our timing adjustments and it was fine.
I have worked on some of the smaller CAT Engines where the IP itself had a Timing Pin inserted into it and the tapered shaft end the IP was tightend into a tapered hole in the Timing Gear.
And, they do have timing Gears.
I think the thing is that on an 20+ year old Mercedes the timing pin will only get you close. If you have 4 degrees of Timing Chain Stetch/Timing Gear Wear and you line the Crank Damper up where it is supposed to be when you use the IP Locking pin (and it is not 24 degrees); you insert the IP with the Locking Pin Installed your timng is still off.
You still should do the Drip Method or use one of the other timing methods.
The alternative would be to corredt the 4 degrees of Timing Chan Stretch with an offset Woodruff Key.
I suppose the same wear issue can exist with CAT or other Engines but if they only give 1 method of timing for them that is all you can use.
__________________
84 300D, 82 Volvo 244Gl Diesel
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 06-27-2009, 01:15 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: chicago area, illinois
Posts: 281
i dont think i have any timing chain streach. when i did the valves i checked the chain and it had no play what so ever.. it may have been recenttly changed
__________________
1985 mercedes benz 300D turbo diesel
1998 VW GTI VR6
1996 VW GTI 2.0
1999 saab 9-3 turbo
1987 300sdl (sold)
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 06-28-2009, 01:25 AM
Diesel911's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Long Beach,CA
Posts: 51,250
Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboSDL View Post
i dont think i have any timing chain streach. when i did the valves i checked the chain and it had no play what so ever.. it may have been recenttly changed
By no play did you mean that the Pointer lined up with the Zero (which is top dead center) mark on the Crankshaft Damper when the Camshaft Gear Timing Mark was lined up with the Camshaft Bearing Tower Timing mark?

Or did you mean that the Chain looked/felt tight when you had the Valve Cover off?
__________________
84 300D, 82 Volvo 244Gl Diesel
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 06-28-2009, 10:08 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: chicago area, illinois
Posts: 281
the chain felt real tight, i couldnt pull it a bit away from the cam gear at all, and when the cam is at tdc the crank dampner pin is just about right on but not pointing exactly to the pin. what is a woodruf key?
__________________
1985 mercedes benz 300D turbo diesel
1998 VW GTI VR6
1996 VW GTI 2.0
1999 saab 9-3 turbo
1987 300sdl (sold)
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 06-28-2009, 10:54 AM
Diesel911's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Long Beach,CA
Posts: 51,250
Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboSDL View Post
the chain felt real tight, i couldnt pull it a bit away from the cam gear at all, and when the cam is at tdc the crank dampner pin is just about right on but not pointing exactly to the pin. what is a woodruf key?
It is a sort of 1/2 of a circular piece of metal that partly fits into a groove on a shaft but part of it stick out; that part goes into a slot on the Gear that goes on the shaft. It is used to locate the Gear properly on the shaft and also helps to keep the Gear from rotating.
It is item #8 in the 1st diagram.
http://www.detali.ru/cat/oem_mb2.asp?TP=1&F=123193&M=617%2E952&GA=722%2E120315&CT=M&cat=143&SID=05&SGR=015&SGN=01

This Engine has a Timing Chain Tensioner; so I would not expect there to be any looseness in the timing chain. The two main parts of the Timing Chain Tensioner are items #155 and #131.
That Pin/Rod on the Crankshaft Damper is not on Zero there is numbers stamped on it. If it is like mine it will need to be cleaned to see the numbers.

As a quick estimate of your timing chain stretch you can line up the Timing Mark behind the Cahshaft Gear and the Timing Marks on the Camshaft Bearing tower with #1 Cylinder on the compression stroke. Those marks must be carefully alined or it will not be very accurate.
Below is a split piicture of mine.
The left 1/2 of the pic is the Timing Marks on the Camshaft being alined and the right side of the pic is the degree marks on my Crankshaft Dampner.
It is hard to see but I am showing between Zero (top dead center) and 3 degrees past top dead center. It appears that I have 2 degrees past top dead center meaning that my Camshaft Timing is 2 degrees late/retarded.

Since they only make an offset Woodruff Key to correct 4 degrees of late/retarded timing there is nothing that I can do.
Also notice that that Pin/Rod is not on the Zero so the rod does not indicat top dead center.

__________________
84 300D, 82 Volvo 244Gl Diesel
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 06-28-2009, 10:19 PM
Diesel911's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Long Beach,CA
Posts: 51,250
Someone was nice enough to post the below. Same method for your car at 24 degrees.

http://www.peachparts.com/Wikka/OM615OM616InjPumpTiming
__________________
84 300D, 82 Volvo 244Gl Diesel
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 06-29-2009, 01:53 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: chicago area, illinois
Posts: 281
so idealiy the timing should be at tdc when lined up with the cam? and i understand what the woodruf key is but how do u use it to correct the timimg? it doesnt make sense to me if thats what basicly is keeping the cam gear locked on the cam. there are keyways on 350 chevy engine blocks that you need a special socket and it slips over the keyway so u can turn it with a breaker bar. so how would that be used to adjust timing?
__________________
1985 mercedes benz 300D turbo diesel
1998 VW GTI VR6
1996 VW GTI 2.0
1999 saab 9-3 turbo
1987 300sdl (sold)
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 06-29-2009, 08:01 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 8,971
Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboSDL View Post
i understand what the woodruf key is but how do u use it to correct the timimg? it doesnt make sense to me if thats what basicly is keeping the cam gear locked on the cam.
The original key is replaced with a key that has a built-in offset, so that the cam sprocket is moved to offset timing chain elongation.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 06-29-2009, 11:20 AM
Diesel911's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Long Beach,CA
Posts: 51,250
Quote:
Originally Posted by tangofox007 View Post
The original key is replaced with a key that has a built-in offset, so that the cam sprocket is moved to offset timing chain elongation.
The pic below shows a key if you were looking at it on end. The left is a normak key and the righ is a a key with an offset.
Another thing to note is that the same key can put the offset on either side depending on how you install it.
Attached Thumbnails
Timing the IP o 24 BTDC and drip method-mon.jpg  
__________________
84 300D, 82 Volvo 244Gl Diesel
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 06-29-2009, 03:40 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: chicago area, illinois
Posts: 281
ok so would you have to take the cam sproket off then? doesnt usually the sprocket slide over the whole key tho? or is the part that slides over the camshaft flush with the shaft and the offset part the key sticks out so the sprocket can slide over it? i woudl think tho that the key could be prone to snapping?

__________________
1985 mercedes benz 300D turbo diesel
1998 VW GTI VR6
1996 VW GTI 2.0
1999 saab 9-3 turbo
1987 300sdl (sold)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:49 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2024 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page