Theories based on facts can be a wonderful thing. Real life experience ain't too bad either.

My white wagon with Freeze12 has performed with a rebuilt compressor for 4 summers now! I did the rec/dryer, exp. valve, pressure switch, complete flush and all new orings with Nylog.
The performance of the white wagon was the same pretty much as the Squash was with R12. {it was gone through the same way, except I utilized the working compressor that came with the car}.
China came with R134a. The system was sealed but had a low charge. Car had been sitting for several years. Added R134a and used it for a summer or two. Just could not drive the car during July and August during the day. China is now converted to Envirosafe. Oil charge guessed at. Added 4 oz after removing R134a. Jury still out. Haven't driven it more than a couple of times, and with the Envirosafe and a quickie conversion it isn't any better than Freeze12, but already noticeably better than R134a.
Your results may vary......

__________________
Jimmy L.
'05 Acura TL 6MT
2001 ML430 My Spare

Gone:
'95 E300 188K "Batmobile" Texas Unfriendly Black
'85 300TD 235K "The Wagon" Texas Friendly White
'80 240D 154K "China" Scar engine installed
'81 300TD 240K "Smash"
'80 240D 230K "The Squash"
'81 240D 293K"Scar" Rear ended harder than Elton John

JimmyL,
While you are focused on the physical comparisons in the cooling of YOUR cars...
Are there ANY downsides to using FREEZE12 or ENVIROSAFE which would not be obvious to someone reading only your posts ?

__________________
1980 240d ,

chain elongation, cam marks reference:
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/10414-help-i-need-check-stretch.html

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/305365-9-degrees-chain-stretch.html

evap fin cleaning:

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/156207-photo-step-step-post-showing-w123-evaporator-removal-1983-240d-1982-300td.html?highlight=evaporator

A/C thread

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/297462-c-recommendations-mb-vehicles.html

That is what I was trying to show Greg. There has been no downside to Freeze12 in performance or compressor life in 4 years.
I also stated clearly that I had no data compiled on the Envirosafe, just good results from Randy and a few others. My tests on Envirosafe are just starting, but they will be "first hand". Will be interested on any feedback from folks, other than the usual fire bomb rhetoric.......
When over a hunnert though, none of them work well enough for stop and go traffic!!!!!!!

__________________
Jimmy L.
'05 Acura TL 6MT
2001 ML430 My Spare

Gone:
'95 E300 188K "Batmobile" Texas Unfriendly Black
'85 300TD 235K "The Wagon" Texas Friendly White
'80 240D 154K "China" Scar engine installed
'81 300TD 240K "Smash"
'80 240D 230K "The Squash"
'81 240D 293K"Scar" Rear ended harder than Elton John

The biggest problem with a blend is that it is a blend and the various constituents will leak at different rates. Thus you are not supposed to top up nor reuse the recovered refrigerant.

Freeze-12 is the 134a-based stuff, while ES (and Duracool) is a hydrocarbon blend.

I agree with the theories above, but I'm telling yall that in real life it hasn't been even the slightest problem. I've had to top off a couple of times due to those pesky stepped port compressors/sealing rings. Now THAT is the real issue!!!
Reusing the recovered refrigerant does not apply......

__________________
Jimmy L.
'05 Acura TL 6MT
2001 ML430 My Spare

Gone:
'95 E300 188K "Batmobile" Texas Unfriendly Black
'85 300TD 235K "The Wagon" Texas Friendly White
'80 240D 154K "China" Scar engine installed
'81 300TD 240K "Smash"
'80 240D 230K "The Squash"
'81 240D 293K"Scar" Rear ended harder than Elton John

JimmyL, Your Myopic Viewpoint is amazing...

Surely you know that people in different STATES and even other countries read your posts...

Why do you not mention that Hydrocarbons are NOT LEGAL everywhere...
due to one of those ' theories' as you like to call them... that it is an ****unnecessary *****fire hazard ?

What you do to your car is ONE THING... what you suggest others do to their cars is totally different... on a forum one would think that everyone would feel the need to present a balanced picture of situations like this... instead... certain people like you want to promote something.... leaving others to have to bring up the other considerations that are only FAIR to share with everyone for use in their decision making process.

__________________
1980 240d ,

chain elongation, cam marks reference:
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?threadid=10414

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/305365-9-degrees-chain-stretch.html

evap fin cleaning:

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/156207-photo-step-step-post-showing-w123-evaporator-removal-1983-240d-1982-300td.html?highlight=evaporator

A/C thread

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/297462-c-recommendations-mb-vehicles.html

Isn't the failure rate for conversions (when they are properly done) largely related to the higher operating pressures of pure 134a?

Freeze-12 and (in my case) FRIGC are indeed blends and have all the problems with recovery associated with blends, but have very similar pressure-temperature curves to R12. In fact, FRIGC has consistently lower pressures at higher temps compared with R12. So my thinking is that this will help to extend component life closer to the 5 years or so expected of R12.


No thoughts or comments on HC based refrigerants.

__________________

Current Mercedes
1979 maple yellow 240D 4-speed

Gone and fondly remembered:
1980 orient red 240D 4-speed

Gone and NOT fondly remembered:
1982 Chna Blue 300TD

Other car in the stable:
2013 VW Jetta Sportwagen TDI / 6-speed MT

TD == Touring Diesel
TDT == Turbo Deluxe Toenail.

The extra "T" is otherwise meaningless. Try 300TD Turbo if you want to differentiate between your rip-snorting turbodiesel and an older normally aspirated model.

__________________
1984 300TD

Never heard of FRIGC. I am using Freeze 12 also, both in my '89 Nissan and my MB. The Nissan will freeze you out, even in the 100+ days.

The MB, is ok, but since the vacuum does not work for my HVAC, the recirculate flap is stuck in the "allow outside air in position". I did run the a/c with the glove compartment out, and noticed that there is air flow due to a large square hole pulling air in I was able to put my hand in there. I wonder if that is normal, or did the PO do something else...

__________________
RRGrassi


70's Southern Pacific #5608 Fairmont A-4 MOW car

13 VW JSW 2.0 TDI 193K, Tuned with DPF and EGR Delete.

91 W124 300D Turbo replaced, Pressure W/G actuator installed. 210K

90 Dodge D250 5.9 Cummins/5 speed. 400K

Uh, I was merely pointing out my actual experience, so yes, the viewpoint is going to be myopic.


You are an intellectual Greg, I am not. I do not feel the need to espouse every possible viewpoint of every single topic I comment on. I merely offer my own personal experience, myopic as that might be. By offering my experiences, the folks reading this thread can disseminate all of the info shared and make their own decision. I am not teaching a class, I am in the class, and merely raised my hand and added to the discussion.

I made NO suggestions to others as to what to do with their cars, especially regarding Envirosafe. Matter of fact I stated my current lack of data, that I was in the early info gathering stages. Your point was not valid sir.

Where to start with that paragraph above!!
OK, first sentence. That is your view, "that everyone would feel the need to present a balanced picture of situations like this". No, YOU feel that everyone should present every possible view, because that is what you like to do. Some of us just add pieces to the puzzle. Our own personal experience, if you will. The reader then analyzes the data and makes their own decision. If you offer every possible option of every conceivable scenario, good for you!!

Second sentence is the one that pisses me off!! "certain people like you want to promote something...". I am not promoting a "darn" thing!!! You had an issue with Diesel Giant because he promoted Freeze12 in an effort to sell it for too much $$$ on his website. I will thank you not to confuse our situations, and again, you were dead wrong and out of line!!!!!!

Third sentence is kind of redundant, but yes I do leave other considerations to others to explain, especially when I do not have the first hand knowledge of the entire body of work contained in the subject matter. I consider that to be a responsible approach.

I'm not sure why your cross hairs were aimed directly at me, but you know that you have a far greater knowledge of the entirety of AC theory. Your need to be an "AC bully" is perplexing.

I hope I was respectful in my approach above, but still I'm not happy at all with you or your post!

__________________
Jimmy L.
'05 Acura TL 6MT
2001 ML430 My Spare

Gone:
'95 E300 188K "Batmobile" Texas Unfriendly Black
'85 300TD 235K "The Wagon" Texas Friendly White
'80 240D 154K "China" Scar engine installed
'81 300TD 240K "Smash"
'80 240D 230K "The Squash"
'81 240D 293K"Scar" Rear ended harder than Elton John

HC's are for the person who services his own equipment and will always do so. Sticking a car buyer with a HC system would be a cruel joke when it came time for them to get any service done. The same goes for refrigerant blends, but you're more likely to find a shop that could do the work.

Other than that, if you do your own work (or have a HC capable shop), I don't really see that it's a huge problem. Although I would adequately label the system (cover the old 134a label with one of them) and shrink-wrap the ports. That is, if it is legal in your state. And if you have a R12 conversion, you had better convert to 134a first, then be disappointed with the results. If you use a death kit, that's pretty much assured.

I cannot agree with you more.

__________________
Not MBZ nor A/C trained professional but a die-hard DIY and green engineer. Use the info at your own peril. Picked up 2 Infractions because of disagreements. NOW reversed.

W124 Keyless remote, PM for details. http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/mercedes-used-parts-sale-wanted/334620-fs-w124-chasis-keyless-remote-%2450-shipped.html

1 X 2006 CDI
1 x 87 300SDL
1 x 87 300D
1 x 87 300TDT wagon
1 x 83 300D
1 x 84 190D ( 5 sp ) - All R134 converted + keyless entry.

DUH .....

Two of the worst violators of not including ANY downsides in their descriptions and thus promotions of their non standard AC activities AGREE WITH EACH OTHER...

You could knock me over with a feather !!!!

JimmyL, Your protestations are patently absurd.... you do NOT need a vast knowledge of AC theory to know that Hydrocarbons are ILLEGAL in some states...

You do not need a vast AC theory knowledge to figure out...after others have pointed it out... that smaller molecules escape from a hole faster than the larger ones when dealing with a blend...

You do not need to have vast knowledge of AC theory to figure out that finding someone to service the NON STANDARD automobile will most likely be a problem. That means that if you are away from your own house on a trip you will have a problem getting it worked on.

All you need to do is to TRY to be fair to those forum members who may be totally new to the situation.... and might take your descriptions as gospel and make a costly and unnecessary mistake on their car before finding out the potential drawbacks....

A couple or three sentences at the end of your posts.. and you would not even hear from me.... but you prefer the excitement and drama associated with having me call you out on this.... time after time....

Drama Queen !!! That is what others seeing your posts will conclude.

__________________
1980 240d ,

chain elongation, cam marks reference:
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/showthread.php?threadid=10414

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/305365-9-degrees-chain-stretch.html

evap fin cleaning:

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/156207-photo-step-step-post-showing-w123-evaporator-removal-1983-240d-1982-300td.html?highlight=evaporator

A/C thread

http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/297462-c-recommendations-mb-vehicles.html

Folks will see this for what it is, I believe. If I'm the big violator here then I guess my posts above will bear that out. I will allow them to stand on their own merits.
You are creating all these scenarios of being out on the road, and fairness and molecules and such. You glossed over the inaccuracies in your post and accused me of being the drama queen and trying to create excitement????
Greg I simply don't know what to say in response to that.
All I did was post first hand experience in an effort to provide other folks information from my actual work. I don't know the molecular properties of Freeze12, but over 4 years it has worked in a W123 every bit as good as R12, and I've had to top it off a time or two and molecules be dammed it hasn't made a bit of difference. I didn't include down sides because I haven't had any yet. Why does success with blends or alternate freon types twist you off in this manner???
Again, I'll end this in a respectful tone and hope that my info contained in this thread will be taken for what it is, first hand success with no alternate agenda.
And ah-kay, I don't need your agreement with me in an attempt to further this feud you have with folks here on the forum on AC issues. I've read some of your postings and I don't usually agree with your data or appreciate your presentation! Thanks but No Thanks......

__________________
Jimmy L.
'05 Acura TL 6MT
2001 ML430 My Spare

Gone:
'95 E300 188K "Batmobile" Texas Unfriendly Black
'85 300TD 235K "The Wagon" Texas Friendly White
'80 240D 154K "China" Scar engine installed
'81 300TD 240K "Smash"
'80 240D 230K "The Squash"
'81 240D 293K"Scar" Rear ended harder than Elton John

Its not like we're writing for popular mechanics or anything, this is an online forum with people who can post their opinions and experiences. We do not have to write fair, balanced posts like ethical reporters, and some smarter members than I only talk about things they have first hand knowledge about. I'd rather see that than someone spit balling something, which happens very often on this forum.

I don't think anyone is seeing Jimmy as the drama queen or absurd, quite the opposite actually.

__________________
1985 500SL Euro w/ AMG bits 130k
1984 300SD Turbodiesel 192k
1980 240D Stick China 188k
2001 CLK55 AMG 101k
2007 S600 Biturbo 149k Overheated Project, IT'S ALIVE!!!