Good point about the bicycle. I think one is much more aware of the courtesy - or lack thereof - of automobile drivers when not isolated inside a car. What is merely discourteous toward you when in a car is extremely threatening when riding a bike or on foot. As one who spends a reasonable amount of time riding a bike (4,500 miles this year, almost all of them on the road) or out running I'm perhaps more aware of the need for drivers to be courteous, and hence act that way myself.

Remember, the roads were built for people to use, not cars. Side rambling: the first roads were actually built for bicyclists in the late 1800s because mud wasn't suitable for cycling. Improved roads in the US predate the advent of the auto.

- Jim

just to add my .02. everybodies taste or likes are not the same.
we don't like the same food or women. ie; we don't all like the same cars. we all can be couteous in these trying times and forget our differences.
ok i'm a little wierd i like studebakers old mopars and mercedes.
God bless america

wow, I didn't think my reply would spark a debate

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1982 300D - Silver/Blue "Ralph" -For Sale:
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/mercedes-benz-cars-sale/119226-1982-300d-sale.html#post852260

1989 VW Diesel Jetta Blue/Blue "Bodo" RIP

I have owned both a LS400 and a 300sd. All I can see is that these 2 cars are made for 2 totally different people. The mercedes is meant to be used! The Lexus is made to be wiped down with a diaper. I drive alot in my current job and the Lexus just shows more wear, my old 300sd looked the same after years of my abuse. All I can say is that my wife now drives the Lexus!!! She says it's buttery smooth, no thanks!!!

I only wish my W202 had as good build quality as the Lexus!

tigerfox,

You mean you'd like to have leather that cracks all to pieces in less than a year.

I agree the 202 is not the best Benz ever made, but when you get to the 100K mark or so, your C Class will still be rolling happily down the road, while the LS400 is in the shop having some very expensive work done.

Another thing, you're comparing a $30,000 car to a $50,000 or $60,000 car. This is an apples to oranges comparison.

Enjoy your C Class for many years,

Larry, stating "You mean you'd like to have leather that cracks all to pieces in less than a year..." is a lot like saying: "don't have kids, for they will die of cancer at 65." Sure, the latter is a harsh statement, but my point is: its not always the case! We have two Lexus cars (can't call them Lexi?) that one of them, is 5 years old and guess what! The leather isn't cracked. In fact, its mint! And its got full leather (unlike some C's with partial leather) and is aging like a champ. Believe me Larry, the Lexus will be riding around happily at 100k+, I've been in all models with over 100k and they ride like the day they came off the line! Oh, and larry, the 5 year car I talk about is an ES300, about the same money as a C. So maybe the Lexus product isn't so bad afterall.

But let me state this, in the 10 years Lexus cars have been around, they have gotten better! The rides are better, the reputation is better for service and they have proven one hell of a product. Mercedes on the other hand has gone by the wayside in quality especially in the interiors. They have gotten way too complicated (COMMAND, give me a break!) and have had a fair share of mechanical problems. All I know is, I wouldn't want to maintain an 94 S500 with all the gizmos that comprise that car. The contemporary LS400 needs what? Timing belts every 60K, and oil changes? I've read readers polls on the Lexus, and let me just state, they are A LOT simpler than a Merc. Costs are way lower.

The Lexus is a super product. But it isn't for Larry, and I guess, well, that's okay too!

Dose Lexus really use timing belts! please tell me that MB hasn't fallen to that money making scam. When I worked in an import shop some years back about a third of our work was replacing timing belts even though we charged somewhat less than the Dealers it was our biggest profit maker and all our mechanics could beat flat rate by a mile. Almost all of those 60 thousand mile belts looked pretty good to me. It was common knowledge among shop owners that timing belt replacement was a money train. An the fact that they rarely give any audible indication like a chain might before a failure makes them all the worst...Perhaps that Lexus driver didn't stop to let me out maybe his timing belt broke...
William Rogers .....

William,

I am happy to report that there are no MB's, at least of the ones imported into the US, that have a belt.

I agree, timing belts are a SCAM. You could take the finest engineered engine in the world, put a timing belt on it, and you just downgraded that engine by 50%.

When my wife bought her 4Runner we were in a hurry to replace her car and I didn't have the opportunity to do my normal two months of research before buying a car. Since it was a Toyota, I assumed that it had a chain like the Toyota engines I've seen apart before.

Turns out the 3.4 liter engine has the cheapie belt, but the cheapie 4 cylinder engine has a chain. Go figure!

Everyone,

I know that many of you think I must not like Toyotas. That is not the case. Generally speaking I believe that Toyota makes the number two car in the world. Generally speaking.

My boss bought a new LS400, and the leather was cracking like crazy in less than six months. He drove quite alot and once the car hit 100,000 miles, he was spending scads of money on it at the dealer. He was one of those people that wouldn't have been able to find the drain plug if his life depended on it, and probably would not have known what to do with the drain plug once he found it.

Another thing that puzzles me is the MYTH that MB quality is decreasing. I heard this in the early seventies. People saying that MB just doesn't have the quality that the old ones have. People continue to say this with each new model, I've been hearing it now for almost 30 years.

The one that really killed me was when the 124 car came out and so many people claimed that it wasn't even close to the quality of the 123. I love the 123's simplicity, and the cars, but there is no way you can consider the 124 anything but vastly superior to it's predecessor the 123. No way!

If there is something lacking in quality about my C240 over my 124 car or my 123 cars, I sure can't find it. The car is a brilliant piece of engineering AND production, and mine was one of the very first guinea pig cars that they put together in the summer of 2000.

I guess the old saying "They just don't make them like they used to" is in many peoples minds what perpetuates the MB myth. I say "Thank God they don't". I have had a few tirades when something has failed and the dealer doesn't put their finger on it right away. But I've seen or had those experiences with every other brand I can think of.

MB has ALWAYS made nothing but solid cars that were known for reliability and longevity. Do they make mistakes and do some of their cars have some achilles heals? Of course, like the steering boxes in the 123 cars that can't be easily adjusted, and almost always need adjusting.

Lexus, on the other hand, emerged from a ccompany that sent cars to the US in the late fifties that were so bad that they withdrew them from the market. Toyota went back and studied, did their homework and improved. Then, voila, the oil embargo. This gave them a huge market for cars that could get more than 10 miles from a gallon of gas. Toyota did a fabulous job, analyzing their mistakes and the American market. Their cars got better and better. Once they had captured an enviable market share, they were maxed out on market share and they had to find a way to get more.

They did a great job analyzing the American market once again, and doing their normal copying. The Japanes have been known for copying for years and years. In World War II when Pappy Boyington was a prisoner of war, the Japanese took him somewhere in a plane that he said was rivet for rivet an EXACT copy of a C47/DC3. This is not to say that the Japanese have not had a little bit of innovation, they have, but not as much as you think. Someone pointed out the innovation of the Wankel engine. I agree it is innovative. It is also the design of a GERMAN.

Anyway, back to the Lexus. Toyota did an enviable, textbook example of marketing evaluation and then executed very well. The Japanese in general have done this on all fronts. They have EVEN done so well that they have a sizable portion of the American public believing that the Japanese make the finest products in the world. Perception is reality. If enough people perceive the Lexus to be the finest car in the world, then there is nothing that will change the mind of that group. They validate that decision in each others minds. It's just human nature.

If you look at it from the perspective of many of the independent shops posts here and talking to them individually, most of them tell you that the Lexus is a lease car, meant to last and be maintained during the first 100,000 miles. At that point the car becomes more expensive to maintain than most anything. These are not my thoughts, but the thoughts of those in the business.

So, give me my timing chains and my half million mile cars and I'm happy. I'm also very happy for those who don't have to drive as many miles as myself and can drive whatever car they want because by the time it's worn out, they are sick and tired of driving the same car for so many years.

The average US driver, drives around 13,000 miles per year. That means their car only needs to go about 130,000 miles in ten years. Most everyone is ready for something different after ten years. Thus the Lexus, for most drivers turns out to be a FABULOUS car. And I'm happy for them. If I didn't have to drive 50,000 miles or so per year, I would have many more choices for a car to drive.

Have a great day,

Nice analysis Larry-

Also, we must not forget Dr. Edward Demming (an American).

An economic genius who transformed Japan from a humiliated culture into a global economic force. Demming taught, "We can no longer leave quality, service and price to the forces of competition for price alone. Price has no meaning without an actual measure of the quality being purchased. The policy of forever trying to drive down price ... with no regard to quality and service, can drive good vendors and good services out of business. He that has a rule to give his business to the lowest bidder deserves to be rooked."

Excellent rant by Larry! (I jest - it's much to reasoned a response to be considered ranting.)

What puts me off about Toyota/Lexus is their cars have absolutely no appeal to me, as something of an automobile enthusiast. I've never even considered purchasing one of their products. I'm quite rational and realize they offer certainly the best quality/reliability/price tradeoff in the industry. But there's just nothing to like about their products once you get past appliance-like reliability. The exterior styling ranges from bland to horrific. The interior design ranges from boring-but-functional to odd-and-not-so-functional. Once you get past anvil like reliability, I just don't see much to like about their products. Of course, reliability seems to be the number one - and in many cases only - criteria Americans use to shop for a vehicle.

Now, I may be a bit of a statistical outlier, mind you. There's a really nice looking Alfa Romeo Milano for sale not too far away that's been tempting me for a while...

- Jim

To touch on Larry's comment about how Mercedes quality has not gone down, I too have heard many many people say that "Mercedes doesn't build them like the used to." I think this is probably untrue, but is the perceived notion because we all analyze examine things in contexts and relative to current situations. Back in the 70's and 80's, the difference between a Mercedes and another car, quality wise, was large. Therefore, Mercedes, was a supremely superior product. Nowadays, the competition has caught up and the quality and reliability differences are subtle. Current Mercedes products are no longer vastly superior compared to their competition (although Larry will probably argue this into the ground). In other words, their relative market position has changed, eventhough the overall quality has gone steadily up in the past 2 decades.

The incredible quality and reliability of Lexus/Toyota cars is a by product of extremely intellilgent marketing. They have managed to make some of the most desirable luxury cars, the best selling family sedan, one of the best pickups (T100), class leading SUV's (the LandCruiser and RX300/Highlander), and best selling economy cars (ie. Corolla). They have even managed to make a better "American" car than even the Americans could make (the Avalon). In short, their wonderful corporate strategizing has made them a comfortable leader in ALL fields of the auto industry(unlike Mercedes who only dominates, and not very well, the luxury market). Yes yes, Mercedes snobs will say that the Mercedes corporation would never dip down into the economy and generic markets, but who cares. Toyota is laughing all the way to the bank. It's all about market share, and THIS is what makes Toyota/Lexus such a brilliant company.

Alex

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1983 300D (parked for four years)
2012 VW Sportwagen TDI Manual
2001 Miata SE
1962 Chevrolet Corvair Rampside

DieselHead,

No, I agree, many other cars have improved greatly, especially in how well they drive. I do agree that the gap is much closer than it used to be in that regard.

Where I see Benz most superior is in the area of longevity. There are many cars that drive as impressively, and even some that surpass the Benz in that category.

BTW, I really hope I don't fall in the Benz "snob" category. I also have on my place, registered and on the road, vehicles from Cheverolet, Toyota and Ford.

Have a great day,

is how easy they are to maintain. I will say that the Honda never requires anything other than the fluid/filters and an occasional brake job. The thing to keep in mind is the "engineering" involved to make it so much easier to do the maintenance on the various vehicles. I would much rather have to work on the Benz than the Honda because it is so much easier to get to everything. Personally, I do not think that Toyota, Honda nor anyone else puts much design thought into making it "easy" to maintain.

Also, regarding the timing chain/belt thing - the diesels that are built to run all the time have gears - no chain or belt. I think Isuzu builds a four cyl industrial engine that the cam and injection pump is driven by gears. We had a chip pusher at work that required new pistons and cylinder sleeves and it was such that you did not even have to remove the block nor "jack" it up to change them.

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Jim

Larry,

no no, you're not one of the snobs I'm refering to. You can actually recognize the quality of the products Mercedes produces. I was refering to those who really see their Mercedes as nothing more than an ornament and status symbol, mostly owned by trophy wives who, despite the fact that they are unemployed because they depend on their husbands, still hire babysitters for their children so they can go to and from Nordstorm's whenever they please. Around here in suburban New York city, these women dominate the roads during the day and it makes for a very frustrating driving experience. These are also the same people who demand to have a new Benz every three or four years and just toss their older "out of fashion" ones aside. Those are the Benz snobs.

Alex

__________________
1983 300D (parked for four years)
2012 VW Sportwagen TDI Manual
2001 Miata SE
1962 Chevrolet Corvair Rampside