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  #46  
Old 08-30-2009, 11:18 PM
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The 124 was the car that everyone had benchmarked. When it first hit the streets, people were amazed. It was described by one auto rag as "like it was machined from a single block of steel" as it had an industry shocking highest resonant-frequency chassis in the industry, by a huge margin, IIRC it was 54hz and at least 15Hz above the next-best chassis.

Tires make a big difference also, good tires can show a car's best, bad tires make any car ride and/or handle like a POS.

Oh, and my younger brother was Product Planner, All New Vehicles for Lexus BTW.
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  #47  
Old 08-31-2009, 08:18 AM
LarryBible
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Even without doing research I would bet good money, that KYB has made a change to these products since the time that I bought a set about 10 years ago. There could be NO ONE that would not have noticed a log wagon stiff suspension with the same KYB's that I bolted on at that time.

I fully expect that people were raising hell and they had to improve their product for this application.
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  #48  
Old 08-31-2009, 04:08 PM
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I can say that the W124 is eons ahead of the venerable W123.

It's also the best car I have ever owned/driven.

Occasionally I have to rent a car for a week at a time for work and I am always completely disgusted with it by the time I return it.

Even with shot struts and shocks I couldn't wait to get back into my 16 year old MB.

Those brand new Malibus that everybody was praising is a POS with a turning radius of a Mack truck.

It's a long, ugly, poorly designed POS.

What a shame that is considered an achievement for American cars.

However, it is much less expensive than an MB.

I hear the Cadillac CTS-V is a real quality car according to Top Gear's James May.
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  #49  
Old 09-02-2009, 02:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryBible View Post
Even without doing research I would bet good money, that KYB has made a change to these products since the time that I bought a set about 10 years ago. There could be NO ONE that would not have noticed a log wagon stiff suspension with the same KYB's that I bolted on at that time.

I fully expect that people were raising hell and they had to improve their product for this application.
Well, I drove it for about three hundred miles today and I must say that it is quite firm.

Big bumps are absorbed very commendably but it's the small, abrupt ones that don't get damped.

For example, a really thick bead of asphalt crack sealant is much more jarring than a proper mound or dip in the road.

I'm starting to see where you were coming from, Larry.

It definitely handles more reliably now and I REALLY like that but I must say that you were quite right about the ride.

It's just those road imperfections that don't quite meet the damping threshold that gnaw on you with these things.

After all that driving today, I was actually a little on edge.

My wishful thinking from the previous post must now be tempered with some reality.

They do absorb bumps and dips beautifully but it's the small stuff that eats on me.
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  #50  
Old 09-02-2009, 10:14 AM
LarryBible
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Quote:
Originally Posted by i-osprey View Post
I can say that the W124 is eons ahead of the venerable W123.

It's also the best car I have ever owned/driven.

Occasionally I have to rent a car for a week at a time for work and I am always completely disgusted with it by the time I return it.

Even with shot struts and shocks I couldn't wait to get back into my 16 year old MB.

Those brand new Malibus that everybody was praising is a POS with a turning radius of a Mack truck.

It's a long, ugly, poorly designed POS.

What a shame that is considered an achievement for American cars.

However, it is much less expensive than an MB.

I hear the Cadillac CTS-V is a real quality car according to Top Gear's James May.

The 124 is ahead of the 123 in many regards as it should be since it is 10 or more years newer technology.

Where the 124 falls short is in simplicity. Including my Wife and families 123 experiences, I have very close to a million miles of experience maintaining and right at 800,000 miles experience behind the wheel of 123's. I have about 260,000 miles or so experience behind the wheel and maintaining my manual transmission 300E.

To do a more meaningful comparison, you need to separate the 123 four cylinder cars from the 123 five cylinder cars. The four cylinder 123's are the epitome of simplicity. The 123 five cylinder is actually not that much more complex, but when it comes to wrenching on them the four is much easier than the five. If comparing to other cars, the five cylinder 123 is often easier to work on and more simple than most any other car of it's production time or later.

That said, the four cylinder diesel 123 car with manual accessories IMHO is the best car FOR ITS TIME ever produced! Does it drive as well as the 124? Of course not. Is it as quiet as a 124? No way. But if you want a car that offers great reliability, easy servicability and economy along with a pleasant driving experience the manual everything 240D is King.

What IS a very fair and correct statement about these two cars is: "Sitting behind the wheel the advantage is CLEARLY in favor of the 124. With wrench in hand, the winner is CLEARLY the 123.

My $0.02,
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  #51  
Old 09-02-2009, 01:35 PM
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By that measurement, an air-cooled beetle would beat the 240D, no vacuum-actuators, no water cooling, engine and trans can be on the ground in 20minutes, ... I still prefer the 124! But of course, I'm biased a bit.
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  #52  
Old 09-02-2009, 03:56 PM
LarryBible
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No, you're missing my point. By YOUR scale, why stop at a Beetle? Why not go all the way back to a Model A. Let me try it a different way.

There has never been a car so reliable, long lived and so easy to work on that also drove and operated as well as the 240D.

It's a matter of balance. The 240D has the perfect balance of simplicity and driving pleasure, again, FOR IT'S TIME!

You are not the only one who thinks more of a 124 than a 123. AS I SAID! In the drivers seat the 124 is the CLEAR winner. Wrench in hand, the 123 is BY FAR more maintenance and repair friendly than a 124 car.

Let me give you a few examples:

Changing water pump: 300E, at least 3.5 and that's if you've done it before.
240D, 1 hour,

Changing belt tensioner 300E, 1 1/2 hours 240D Oops, it has no belt tensioner

Removing door panel 300E, a painful 20 min. 240D a very pleasant five minutes.

Changing Diff Mounts 300E, a tough several hours with a tough to use special tool. 240D I don't know, I've never had to do it.

Window riser 300E, again a tough, cussing job of an hour or better. 240D an easy 20 minutes, but there's no electric motor to burn out.

CCU 300E, a half hour plus at least another fifteen minutes that you had BEST spend replacing the aux water pump or lose your new CCU. 240D There is no CCU.

If there is any repair operation on a 300E that is not significantly more of a PITA than the corresponding operation on a 240D I can't imagine what it would be.

The 300E is definitely a fabulous machine behind the wheel, but you'd better enjoy challenging maintenance if you're going to drive and maintain one. Not is it more difficult to perform maintenance and repair on a 124 car, but you will also have to do more of it.

I'm an experienced driver and maintainer of both. If I could only have one car and had to drive it alot. I would have a manual everything 240D and just have to give up the fun of driving my 300E.

Last edited by LarryBible; 10-03-2009 at 09:13 AM.
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  #53  
Old 09-03-2009, 11:27 PM
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Well, once I let some air out of the tires and installed a new steering damper I am completely convinced that the KYB's are the way to go.

My previous post was written before I remembered that I had inflated the tires to about 40PSI to try to compensate for the wallowy suspension parts I had just removed.

I have the fronts at 30psi and the rears at 32psi and all is well.

Also, I can't believe how much replacing a dead steering damper improved the feel of the car.

I am surprised at how much harshness it took out of the ride.

I highly recommend that you replace your steering damper if it is in any way compromised.

Mine would have made a much better slide rule than a damper when I removed it.
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  #54  
Old 09-04-2009, 12:11 AM
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In case y'all don't know, many Toyota and Lexus models come with KYBs when new. And they are frequently criticized for riding too soft.

I know for sure that my '92 ES300 came with them. However, the originals had shorter life than their replacements. I also think the car rides a little stiffer with the aftermarket replacements.

One of the things people don't like about KYBs is they have more compression damping and not enough rebound damping. This is generally true in my experience. However, some cars with soft springs and short suspension travel benefit from this approach. Switching to KYBs on some cars completely stops bottoming out problems.

They work great on non modified VW Rabbits. Since discovering how well they worked on my Rabbit I've installed them on every subsequent VW or Audi product, with excellent results. They also work great on my Chrysler. But I must say they worked much better when it wore 14 inch wheels with 70 series tires. Now that I have 15-215-55s on it, I think it's too abrupt on sharp bumps, which we have a lot of in Utah. Here, they frequently don't bother to raise the manhole covers as they re-pave the roads over the years. It saves a few bucks for the city, but it's very hard on cars. (net negative, I think) I drive through town trying to avoid them. In the 240D with 147k miles on the original shocks, it absorbs those big sharp bumps very well. It also has 14 inch wheels with 70 series tires.

I bought a set of 4 for the 240D, but I'm not sure I'm going to put them on. My car had the motor mounts replaced, but all other rubber is 30 years old, dried out, or cracked. I'm not sure my shocks are the main problem, so I'm going to replace all the rubber bushings and such first, restore ride height, etc.
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  #55  
Old 09-04-2009, 08:06 AM
LarryBible
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The 123 cars are a whole different ball game when it comes to shocks. I expect that the KYB's would work very well for them.
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  #56  
Old 09-04-2009, 10:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by i-osprey View Post
I highly recommend that you replace your steering damper if it is in any way compromised.
Does KYB make steering dampers?

Sixto
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  #57  
Old 09-04-2009, 10:29 PM
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There are many different shocks, different jounce and rebound damping, for many different applications and comparing a shock brand that works on a certain Toyota et al product absolutely has nothing to do with the characteristics of a 124-application shock on a 124, regardless of the shock/strut/damper manufacturer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon_SLC View Post
In case y'all don't know, many Toyota and Lexus models come with KYBs when new. And they are frequently criticized for riding too soft.

I know for sure that my '92 ES300 came with them. However, the originals had shorter life than their replacements. I also think the car rides a little stiffer with the aftermarket replacements.

One of the things people don't like about KYBs is they have more compression damping and not enough rebound damping. This is generally true in my experience. However, some cars with soft springs and short suspension travel benefit from this approach. Switching to KYBs on some cars completely stops bottoming out problems.

They work great on non modified VW Rabbits. Since discovering how well they worked on my Rabbit I've installed them on every subsequent VW or Audi product, with excellent results. They also work great on my Chrysler. But I must say they worked much better when it wore 14 inch wheels with 70 series tires. Now that I have 15-215-55s on it, I think it's too abrupt on sharp bumps, which we have a lot of in Utah. Here, they frequently don't bother to raise the manhole covers as they re-pave the roads over the years. It saves a few bucks for the city, but it's very hard on cars. (net negative, I think) I drive through town trying to avoid them. In the 240D with 147k miles on the original shocks, it absorbs those big sharp bumps very well. It also has 14 inch wheels with 70 series tires.

I bought a set of 4 for the 240D, but I'm not sure I'm going to put them on. My car had the motor mounts replaced, but all other rubber is 30 years old, dried out, or cracked. I'm not sure my shocks are the main problem, so I'm going to replace all the rubber bushings and such first, restore ride height, etc.
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  #58  
Old 09-05-2009, 01:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sixto View Post
Does KYB make steering dampers?

Sixto
87 300D
Not that I know of....was that a rhetorical question?

Mine is made by Stabilus-Boge.
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  #59  
Old 09-05-2009, 09:25 AM
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I put in Bilstein comforts and am not happy with them. They are too soft for my taste. The softest damper I have liked is the Sachs Turbo Gas. I would say the turbo gas is between the Bilstein comforts and HDs. If I were to do it over again I would purchase the HDs
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  #60  
Old 10-02-2009, 10:32 PM
92 300D 2.5L OBK #59
 
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How about an update? My boots are shot and I see fluid. Gona be time soon.
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