Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > Mercedes-Benz Tech Information and Support > Diesel Discussion

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16  
Old 08-23-2009, 12:29 PM
Diesel911's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Long Beach,CA
Posts: 51,038
Quote:
Originally Posted by Squabble View Post
well, i gave up for the night. i've got a farmer friend with a better garage and tools, i'll head over there tomorrow to finish this job up.

something else funny occurred though:

i put the injector lines back on, i put the return lines back on, i re-attached the vacuum lines i had to disconnect, and then went to start it up. it wouldn't turn over, obviously because of the air in the lines, so i gave it a good 40 or 50 pumps on the primer. started up but ran roughly and noisily. i floored it and the biggest, blackest cloud of smoke my car has ever emitted came gushing out the exhaust. just thick soot all over my driveway and through the air. i did it a couple more times and got even more. i took it for a quick spin, brought it up to temp and came back. parked it, floored it, and got a lot of smoke, not as much but still a lot. is this normal behavior for the lines being disconnected? did i hand pump too much fuel into the system or something? did i do something yanking on the injectors?

either way, thanks for the advice. i'll get cranking on them tomorrow. still though, does anyone know if it's a good idea or not to spray pb blaster or another lubricant in there to help out?

EDIT: the local diesel shop/tractor trailer shop to me, when i asked them about pop testing new injectors, that is was b.s. and that any company worth anything does all that before hand. they claimed to be in business for X amount of years and never did any pop testing before installing new injectors. food for thought?
If you put your new Injectors Injectors in with out Pop Testing it is not something to be extremely woried about.
At the Rebuilder they do Pop-Test them. But, Injectors pulled out of a bin are never going to be as balanced as a set that a person to care to balance.
The other thing is that these Injectors use shims to adjust the Pop-pressure making some times frustrating to set the Pop-pressure where you want to as there is a set number of shime sizes to pick from; other Injectors have and adjusting screw. The adjusting screw makes it possible for the Rebuilder to adjust them all extremely close to the factor Pop-pressure.
I find it odd that a Tractor Shop would not have a Pop-tester as they are really great to have for trouble-shooting; and, for a shop wouldnot cost much.
However:
The main advantage of using a local shop to rebuild your Injectors is they will try to balance your set of Injector as best they can.

When you buy Injectors at a parts place or on the Internet they grab your set randomly from a Bin of Injectors.
As an example the acceptable range of opening pressures for 617.952 new Injectors is 135-143 bar.
That is a possible variance of 8 bar.

So when the parts place grabs your Injectors from a bin you could have Injectors at the High and Low end of the opening pressure range and have an 8 bar variance.
Yet the FSM tells you “ The difference between any two Injection Nozzles within one Engine must not exceed 5 bar".
A Fuel Injection shop will try to Balance as close as they possibly can with in the amount of time they are given to do the Job.

The other advantage of using a Local Shop is you can buy your own Spray Nozzles; giving you a little control over the quality of Spray Nozzle you put into your Injectors.

__________________
84 300D, 82 Volvo 244Gl Diesel
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 08-23-2009, 03:51 PM
Registered Hack
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,642
ditto on the warm engine and penetrating oil.

the threads might not strip.... but you could end up loosening the prechamber collar. That kinda sucks.
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 08-23-2009, 04:23 PM
Squabble's Avatar
W123 Obsessed
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Trumansburg, NY
Posts: 696
Quote:
Originally Posted by jt20 View Post
the threads might not strip.... but you could end up loosening the prechamber collar. That kinda sucks.
from a total newbie to mechanical work.....what does that mean? what's a prechamber collar?

what are the symptoms if that happens?

i ask this to learn first but also because after yanking on those injectors yesterday, i've somehow created a coolant leak that i can't track down. are these things related or was it just a freak accident? i was yanking hard enough to rock the whole engine in its mounts.

maybe it is just a coincidence....

it's not coming from the t-stat, weep holes, or bypass line. it's dripping down the passenger side of the engine and hitting the oil pan and dripping to the ground from there. i can't seem to find the source anywhere, it happened after the engine cooled down completely, leaving a big puddle in the morning and dripping about 1 drip per 45 seconds to a minute...
__________________
1985 300D - 1984 Euro 280E AMG Clone (SOLD) - 1978 280CE (SOLD) - 1983 300D (SOLD) - 1981 300D (SOLD)
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 08-23-2009, 04:51 PM
Registered Hack
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 4,642
this prechamber and its collar are from a 603, same design for the most part.

the PC is pressed into the head and creates a seal b/w atmosphere and cylinder bore. If it starts to loosen up, or get pressed back out, you could lose small amounts of compression (insignificant really).

the collar is kinda like a locknut. It prevents the pressures of combustion from pushing the PC out of the head.

unless your head is cracked severely in this area, the PCs are unrelated to coolant leaks.
Attached Thumbnails
Stuck Injectors - Any Advice?-prechmbr.jpg  
__________________

Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 08-23-2009, 05:10 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Cape Cod Massachusetts
Posts: 1,427
Prechambers and their collar rings!

On the 615/616/617 engine family as well as the other MB indirect injection diesel engines the injector nozzle holder body (aka-"injector") actually threads into either the prechamber collar ring (615/6/7) or the prechamber itself. The "injectors" do not thread directly into the head.

If the prechamber collar ring is loosened along with the "injector" you may end up needing to obtain a replacement ring and possibly a replacement injector as you would be faced with some how seperating the two on the bench. Maybe you can accomplish it in a vise, or with the ring held in a pipe wrench, or cutting and splitting the ring off the "injector". If this happens you will also need the pin-type prechamber collar ring tool in order to reinstall the old or any new ring that will secure the prechamber in place.

The leak would be unrelated to the "injectors" or directly to their removal. It's always a possibility that something was leaned on or disturbed in some way when you're doing work under the hood.

As you recently have done unrelated work on the cooling system it's probably better to tart a review of the things you disturbed and did there rather than something related to what you just did with the "injectors"! Good Luck!
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 08-23-2009, 08:47 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Nova Scotia, Canada.
Posts: 6,510
You quoted the engine was really deflecting pretty hard under your initial extracting the injector efforts. Leverage etc. may have been improved by using the fore and aft axis of the engine as a pull line when initially loosening the injectors. I guess I better correct that as that was actually what you were doing. You should have used the diagonally cross the head line as your pull axis. Your way the motor mounts where increasing the difficulty by flexing to the increase in applied initial torque. Reducing it effectivly to some degree in my opinion.

My guess is the movement you created exceeded the normal engine motion and something like a heater hose end has been unusually disturbed. You should be able to clean things down and trace the current coolant leak to it's location. I doubt it is anything of a serious nature.

Also the other principal reasons for the testing of the new nozzles. I would want to know they were correctly set. Plus the new nozzles spray pattern is observed during the check.. New parts are not always good.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 08-24-2009, 12:40 AM
Diesel911's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Long Beach,CA
Posts: 51,038
Quote:
Originally Posted by Squabble View Post
from a total newbie to mechanical work.....what does that mean? what's a prechamber collar?

what are the symptoms if that happens?

i ask this to learn first but also because after yanking on those injectors yesterday, i've somehow created a coolant leak that i can't track down. are these things related or was it just a freak accident? i was yanking hard enough to rock the whole engine in its mounts.

maybe it is just a coincidence....

it's not coming from the t-stat, weep holes, or bypass line. it's dripping down the passenger side of the engine and hitting the oil pan and dripping to the ground from there. i can't seem to find the source anywhere, it happened after the engine cooled down completely, leaving a big puddle in the morning and dripping about 1 drip per 45 seconds to a minute...
If your Injectors are still out you can take a look and see for yourself.
The part that the Injector screws into on the Engine is actually the Screw In collar that Retains the Precombustion Chamber.

If you look at it you will see 1 slot on each side for the special tool that is needed to remove the Collar.

If the Injector is stuck bad enough it is possible it could loosen the Collar.
This is not a major problem except that you would still need to remov the Injector from the Collar and would also need the Special Tool to tighten the Collar back down.

To prevent your new Injectors from sticking apply some anti/Never-Seeze type compound (sold in any Auto Parts store in a tube) to the outside theads on the Injector.

On my 84 300D I would look at the Heater Hoses that are right above the Oil Filter Housing and the ones attached to the Fire Wall and those Steel Tubes that they connect to as a possible source of Coolant leaks.

I took the below pic when I was trying to get an idea as to how far in my Glow Plug reamer might be going; but, you can see the hole the Injector came out of and the Precombustion Chamber Retaing ring with the 2 slots on it (one slot is visable at the top the other is partially covered by the Glow Plug reamer).

__________________
84 300D, 82 Volvo 244Gl Diesel

Last edited by Diesel911; 08-24-2009 at 12:52 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 08-24-2009, 08:36 AM
Squabble's Avatar
W123 Obsessed
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Trumansburg, NY
Posts: 696
thanks again for the great explanations, advice, and pictures!

last night i went out and readjusted and tightened up all the hose clamps on the cooling system. this morning, no leaks! must have just loosened something in my yanking.

so, i've put this project on hold, even though i've got ugly, rough start ups each morning still. i now understand the pop testing this a little better and i'm going to have to try to coordinate scheduling as this is my daily driver and the closest place that will do this work is about an hour away. somehow i have to convince them to make an appt. in the a.m. for me and finish asap so i can get home and put them back in before work the next day!

either that or i can buy a set of injectors off of a parts car and mail them off with the new nozzles right? that way i can continue driving and then replace the whole thing once they're done? will that work or do i need the original injectors to my car?

thanks everyone!
__________________
1985 300D - 1984 Euro 280E AMG Clone (SOLD) - 1978 280CE (SOLD) - 1983 300D (SOLD) - 1981 300D (SOLD)
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 08-24-2009, 12:40 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Walnut Creek, CA & 1,150 miles S of Key West
Posts: 4,874
Quote:
Originally Posted by Squabble View Post
either that or i can buy a set of injectors off of a parts car and mail them off with the new nozzles right? that way i can continue driving and then replace the whole thing once they're done? will that work or do i need the original injectors to my car?

thanks everyone!
That will work. You can use NA inj's and have them rebuilt using YOUR nozzles and the pop pressures set up to turbo levels too, the bodies are identical.
__________________
Terry Allison
N. Calif. & Boca Chica, Panama

09' E320 Bluetec 77k (USA)
09' Hyundai Santa Fe Diesel 48k (S.A.)
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 08-24-2009, 12:52 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Out in the Boonies of Hot, Dry, Dusty, Windy Nevada
Posts: 9,652
Do you have any PNP type JY in your area? pull a set off a wreck and have them rebuilt. then you won`t have any down time.

It shouldn`t take you more than 2 hrs to remove and replace the injectors.
I use a 17mm Flair nut that fits on my extention. makes it easier to remove nuts on the hard fuel lines.

Loosening up the metal clamps between the hard lines will help with lining up on getting the nuts to rethread on the injectors and injection pump.

I think there should be 7 clamps. these keep the lines from vibrating and eventually cracking. 8mm socket fits these.

No you don`t have to keep the same set of injectors your engine came with.

Charlie
__________________
there were three HP ratings on the OM616...

1) Not much power
2) Even less power
3) Not nearly enough power!! 240D w/auto

Anyone that thinks a 240D is slow drives too fast.

80 240D Naturally Exasperated, 4-Spd 388k DD 150mph spedo 3:58 Diff

We are advised to NOT judge ALL Muslims by the actions of a few lunatics, but we are encouraged to judge ALL gun owners by the actions of a few lunatics. Funny how that works
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 08-24-2009, 01:02 PM
Diesel911's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Long Beach,CA
Posts: 51,038
Quote:
Originally Posted by Squabble View Post
thanks again for the great explanations, advice, and pictures!

last night i went out and readjusted and tightened up all the hose clamps on the cooling system. this morning, no leaks! must have just loosened something in my yanking.

so, i've put this project on hold, even though i've got ugly, rough start ups each morning still. i now understand the pop testing this a little better and i'm going to have to try to coordinate scheduling as this is my daily driver and the closest place that will do this work is about an hour away. somehow i have to convince them to make an appt. in the a.m. for me and finish asap so i can get home and put them back in before work the next day!

either that or i can buy a set of injectors off of a parts car and mail them off with the new nozzles right? that way i can continue driving and then replace the whole thing once they're done? will that work or do i need the original injectors to my car?

thanks everyone!

Out here in CA if you pull the used Injectors off of a Junk Car the cost $5 each the last time I did it almost 1 year ago.

Is there no one you can barrow a car from for 1 day while the Injectors are Rebuilt?
If they hustel it should only take 10-15 minutes for each Injector; if they are slow 15-25 minutes per Injector.

__________________
84 300D, 82 Volvo 244Gl Diesel
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:30 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2024 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page