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  #1  
Old 09-19-2009, 10:53 PM
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Location: Graham, Wa
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300sd ip ??

I'm looking to purchase a 83sd with 150K. Body is very nice but the leather and interior needs a little help. The owner says the car has no power and will not go up hills. It starts fine and runs down the road but when it requires fuel it cannot make power. She told me that her shop said she needed a new injector pump. It makes sense but I'm not so sure its the problem. I have a 300d now and have a little diesel knowlegde. Can anyone tell me if I can trouble shoot the IP. If the IP is bad I would like to rebuild it myself; is it doable? Can I buy a rebuild kit? I may beable to get the car for 1500. and it would be a very nice car with a little worik, but I don't want to buy a huge problem either. Thanks Kevin

Sorry I'm new here and am still under the learning curve>>
Little more info I'm learned. The car only looses power after being driving for about 20-30 miles. I've read about the fuel pressure by pass to recirc fuel into the tank. May be it get warm and the lift pump can not provide enough fuel for the IP??? Someone also mentioned valves being too tight, and after the valve get hot they cause the problem. The power loss described by the owner is: instead of pulling a hill at 70 mph the car will only go 50, but has regular power when its cold. Thanks for the imput. Kevin


Last edited by kbpenney; 09-23-2009 at 05:27 PM. Reason: New informaiton
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  #2  
Old 09-19-2009, 11:47 PM
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you can not rebuild the IP your self. there is no rebuild for one. If it does need rebuilt or adjustments, it must be taken to a Bosch Injection pump repair facility.

At 150000 miles, the pump should still be ok, they usually last life of the engine.

there may be other problems, like valve adjustment, fuel filters, plugged boost line at the back of the intake manifold.

the fuel strainer in the tank could be plugging up.

Is the shop making the diagnosis on the IP, a MB Diesel repair shop? or a shop that is a generalist, that does a little of this and a little of that and not a lot of any one thing?

were they going to replace it with a used or rebuilt pump? Pumps are pricy, think a rebuilt is $1000.00 or so, or $50 at the JY.

Don`t tip your hand if the fix is easy, play it up and might get the car cheaper.

Charlie
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there were three HP ratings on the OM616...

1) Not much power
2) Even less power
3) Not nearly enough power!! 240D w/auto

Anyone that thinks a 240D is slow drives too fast.

80 240D Naturally Exasperated, 4-Spd 388k DD 150mph spedo 3:58 Diff

We are advised to NOT judge ALL Muslims by the actions of a few lunatics, but we are encouraged to judge ALL gun owners by the actions of a few lunatics. Funny how that works
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  #3  
Old 09-20-2009, 01:28 AM
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Thanks. I believe, but am not sure, it was a euro mechanic that made the call on the bad IP. I do realize that many other problems could cause loss of power but I was hoping that I could perform a check on the IP to figure out if it was failing. If it is bad I have noticed that used ones can be had for 150-300 bucks. Is the pump off of a 300sd different that a D? And is RandR on a IP a big job; could anyone point me in the direction on how to properly RandR the pump. Thanks for the help. Kevin
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  #4  
Old 09-20-2009, 05:37 AM
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I had some questions about the IP rebuilding process a couple years ago. I wanted to know exactly what is replaced and where to get it.

I called several diesel injection shops, most of them were very vague and I got the feeling they did not want to give out any info, as if they were afraid I would find out it wasn't that hard. I finally did find a friendly tech who basically told me that for the $850 they really just disassemble, clean, install new seals, and flow check the IP. I asked him if they replaced any elements, he said no, that would be way too expensive and they are never bad anyway.

So, it sounds to me like the only roadblocks to someone fixing their own IP would be finding manuals and access to a flow bench.

I am sure there are parts kits available (the fuel injection shops aren't pulling them out of thin air), it's just a matter of finding out where they get them.
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  #5  
Old 09-20-2009, 06:48 AM
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Location: Graham, Wa
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Funny you mention the vague response from rebuilders. A friend of mine who runs a DYI off grid power supply web page works with people from all over the word. He also knows people who dabble in reliable power, which includes the famous mercedes cast diesels. He tells me that a missonary in BFE had adapted 5 cly mercedes diesel into an old SUV so he could drive all over primative country. According to my friend the missonary had to rebuild his IP in the middle of no-where with a kit he managed to get delievered to him. The story was that rebuild was successfull and it was not that technical of a rebuild. Anyone with any insight on the rebuild or how/where to get parts and instructions would be helpful.
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  #6  
Old 09-20-2009, 07:27 AM
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Any good 617 Mechanic will have gray hair,and retired.Do your basics,tank screen,lift pump,cracked plastic lines.Hoses air in lines.
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  #7  
Old 09-20-2009, 02:24 PM
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DIESEL911 is the expert on IP and fuel injectors. use to work in a Bosch repair shop. he should have jumped in here by now, might be gone for the weekend.

Im sure where they work on the IP is a clean room invironment. the tolerances are prety close and don`t want any dirt inside the pump.

I still say at 150000 miles the pump shouldn`t be bad, unless water has been injested, unfiltered WVO etc... has caused a problem.

Charlie
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there were three HP ratings on the OM616...

1) Not much power
2) Even less power
3) Not nearly enough power!! 240D w/auto

Anyone that thinks a 240D is slow drives too fast.

80 240D Naturally Exasperated, 4-Spd 388k DD 150mph spedo 3:58 Diff

We are advised to NOT judge ALL Muslims by the actions of a few lunatics, but we are encouraged to judge ALL gun owners by the actions of a few lunatics. Funny how that works
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  #8  
Old 09-20-2009, 02:47 PM
Dionysius
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Seattle WA
Posts: 261
Lightbulb How to Rebuild an IP........

I have just done major study on Bosch PES IP and have a pump plunger element on my desk here. I now understand intimately how these are designed and how they work.

Here are some recent postings from me:
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/256999-question-injection-masters-6.html#post2297277

If someone has an unused pump (non-working is fine) which they want to part with from a 123 I will pay to ship it to me so I can tear it down and pictorially catalog the process. My position is that it is a doable rebuild like all else. From the teardown I hope I will make some of you rebuilders. These are all precision machined parts with some O Ring and other seals and possibly some springs. The wear has to be minimal so I am also certain that parts replacement is very rare.
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  #9  
Old 09-20-2009, 05:50 PM
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Dionysuis,
Your teardown and rebuild would be a great help to all of us. I know the operating principles of the pump as well, and I think that even a flow testing apparatus would not be too complicated to fabricate. As with most things, knowledge is power--the injection shops don't want us to know their mysterious craft, or we would do it ourselves.
Another factor that has made me suspicious is that when my friend's IP, who runs straight WVO dumped into his fuel tank on a W123, has issues, the local diesel shop has no problem "rebuilding" the same pump every 30,000 miles to the tune of $850. There is never an issue of corrosion or wear in the pump, never a mention of "this one will need more parts because of the WVO" as I would have imagined. I strongly suspect they are just cleaning out deposits and laughing all the way to the bank. It would be really nice for us to have all the info and methods available in a DYI.
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  #10  
Old 09-20-2009, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by charmalu View Post
DIESEL911 is the expert on IP and fuel injectors. use to work in a Bosch repair shop. he should have jumped in here by now, might be gone for the weekend.

Im sure where they work on the IP is a clean room invironment. the tolerances are prety close and don`t want any dirt inside the pump.

I still say at 150000 miles the pump shouldn`t be bad, unless water has been injested, unfiltered WVO etc... has caused a problem.

Charlie

Thanks for the faith.

I have been reading until I got down to this Post.
To a certain point I am at a loss as to what to say.

The IP on most 617s has some Throttle shaft seals (O-rings), Copper Crush washers and a Governor gasket, Fuel Supply Pump gasket and no other seals to speak of.
If you take apart the IP and you reuse everything else and you are not going to put it on a Test Stand and Calibrate it properly; what was the point of taking it apart.

There is 2 Roller Bearings and Races and some IPs have a 1/2 intermediate bearing shell that you could replace if they went bad.

However, if you pull out Elements and you do not get them back in Exactly where they came from you will change the fuel quantity they put out.

None of the above will come home to you until you run a used IP on the Test Stand and compare it to the Factory Specs.

If you go into the IP and start changing parts you are going to need a Test Stand for sure as each one of the Elements is adjusted individually; each one timed to the Camshaft and each one individually adjusted for fuel quantity.
While all of the above is going on it all has to be insinc with the Governor.

There is a big difference in taking something apart; puting it together and just having it run the Engine and taking something apart and having it work like it is supposed to.

I can also say I have seen quite a few Elements/Plungers and Barrels that were worn out and had to be replaced. When you examine one you run your finger or thumbnail a cross the area that appears worn. If you can feel it grabbing on your nail you need a new one because it has fine score marks on it.

Then next thing is that everyone has their own idea what rebuilding is.
When I buy something that is "Rebuilt" I expect it to work like a new part would. But, I do not expect all of the parts to be new.

Example: A person takes apart his Turbo Charger and replaces the Seals and the Bearings in and runs it. He tells you he rebuilt his turbo charger.

Did the person have the specs to ever do the below:
But, did that guy measure the Bearing Bores to see if the Bearing Housing needed to be Honed out to the next oversized Bearing?
Was the Turbine shaft measured to see if it had to be ground down to the next undersized Bearing?
Were the Turbine and Compressor wheels balanced?
Was the shaft nut properly Torqued. [I say this because in the past on Air Research Turbochargers you were supposed to heat up the Compressor Wheel, slide it on the shaft and match the alignment marks, torque the shaft nut and let it cool to room temp and torque it again. This last step is one I have not read in the DIY section.]

When it was all assembled was the end play and radial play checked?
and so on.

I think the IP gets blamed on a lot of problems that it is not responsible for sort of like we blame the Black Box on gas cars. We want to blame the Mysterious part we do not understand instead of some malfunctioning sensor or so on.

Perhaps the missionary had some Devine intervention going for him.
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Last edited by Diesel911; 09-20-2009 at 07:33 PM.
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  #11  
Old 09-20-2009, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbpenney View Post
Thanks. I believe, but am not sure, it was a euro mechanic that made the call on the bad IP. I do realize that many other problems could cause loss of power but I was hoping that I could perform a check on the IP to figure out if it was failing.
A failed IP is way down on the list of probable suspects. Clogged fuel filters (to include the tank screen) are a much more likely cause of the problem. I would focus my efforts there before I worried about the IP.
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  #12  
Old 09-20-2009, 10:28 PM
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I've had diesel (not MB, though) "specialists" blame the IP when it was merely a clogged fuel line. As everyone else said the IP is the absolute last thing I would suspect.

I've also spoken with a grey-haired injector specialist when the IP was blamed by the above mentioned diesel mechanic. This guy has the complete Bosch lab and is certified to rebuild them. BTW if you get a chance to tour a shop with all of the calibration equipment do so. It is very impressive. I doubt that there are more than a handfull of them around the country. The equipment is very expensive. Anyway the Bosch tech stated what everyone else has said. If I _wanted_ him to rebuild it he would but his experience is that it would be a waste of money. The cause is usually something relative simple. As long as the IP never lost oil supply they'll usually last longer than the engine.
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  #13  
Old 09-21-2009, 04:46 PM
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OK then,, all the info is invaluable. So is the car worth purchasing for 1500.k with the unknown about the pump? And how long are the transmissions good for; this one should have about 185K on it.
My second IP question is: my current 300d has 235k on it and sometimes idles perfect, other times it has a shake. Will usually adjusting the rack bolt towards the firewall on the pump usually help this issue. Again Thanks.. I'm still not 100% sure on whether a well rounded backyard DYI'er can rebuild an IP. I do believe it would vastly depend on where one could obtain the knowledge and parts to do the job. I also believe it would depend on what failure the IP had sustained; leaks and seals are one thing, mechanical wear is another. Thanks Kevin
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  #14  
Old 09-21-2009, 04:57 PM
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I had posted another note similar to this one. I have a 300SD (190K) and a mechanic who is a friend too, said that the IP may be the cause of a rough idle when the engine runs for the first ten minutes. It seems from reading this post that it could be something else. I suppose replacing my fuel filter would be a start.

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