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  #16  
Old 10-10-2009, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Dionysius View Post
It ran to what I consider top performance for this fine engine. Strangely enough this was not that far removed from what it was running under the old ones. I noticed a vibration at idle on one of them was corrected. They also sounded more robust and symmetrical in timing. I believe our ear can pick up very slight timing asynchronisms. What was amazing to me was how much tolerance there was to what I considered to be totally sub-par and unacceptable nozzles. The Monarks are king like their name implies. I will not return to Bosch Injectors.

One clue as to a worn Injector is if you run your finger on the pintle you will find it a little grabby into your fingerprint ridges.

What is very important about my finding, which should be a real heads up to all out there who care, is that they are a definite maintenance item. I never looked on them as that before. I advise everyone to have a Tester and check them and re-calibrate them every 80,000 miles at least. You will not be able to guess at their condition from any external signals. I also think it is imperative to do the balancing yourself. For the shop to do a fine job they will have to charge you too much. Buying a rebuilt set or even a new set will not guarantee 5 bar balancing. The specs allow a 10 bar spread even on new.

Another thing is that I would say it is not possible to properly clean the Bosch center hole and feeds. The risk of scratching and gouging is too great. I am surprised that the Bosch Designers have stayed with this design.
In the FSM they show using properly sized Music wire to clean out the Pintel Holes.
Where I worked we had diffrent sized Music Wire on Coils and we would use it to clen out Injector Holes on Direct Injection Engines. The trick with the wire is to grind a Hypodermic Needle type point on the end (we hand a machine with a tiny extremely fine grinding wheel)

You put the wire in a Pin Vise (shown in the FSM) and you carefully rotate the wire back and forth so it drills through the Carbon.

After the Hole is open the Nozzle would go into the Ulatrasonic Tank.

I believe the above would work on the Bosch Nozzles but I think if you do that Diesel Purge maybe every year or 2 that might alsoe keep them from plugging. A long with keeping the IP timed and the Valves adjusted.

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  #17  
Old 10-10-2009, 12:32 AM
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The ball in the pc is there to mix the already-atomized fuel with the air for more efficient combustion
If your Injector is streaming out the Fuel instead of spraying the Fuel it is going to hit that Red Hot Ball Pin and that is going to help combustion.

Without the Ball Pin there as in other types of Engines (Mercedes is the only one I know of that has anything like the Ball Pin in the precombustion chamber) the streaming Injector would produce much poorer combustion.

That is why I said I believe having the Ball Pin allows Injectors that might be in poor condition to still be used.
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  #18  
Old 10-10-2009, 10:45 AM
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On average, how many attempts does it take to adjust the pop pressure on a single 617-type injector?

What would be a typical shop charge to service an injector?

Last edited by tangofox007; 10-10-2009 at 10:53 AM.
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  #19  
Old 10-10-2009, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by tangofox007 View Post
On average, how many attempts does it take to adjust the pop pressure on a single 617-type injector?

What would be a typical shop charge to service an injector?
There is no way know how many attempts.

After your Injectors are assembled you pop test them and write down the numbers and keep that number organized with the Injector it came from.
You decide the Pop Pressure you want. You take the Injector apart and measure the Shim/Spacer.
You use the estimate of from the FSM 0.50 shim/spacer change = 3 Bar of pressure change. You search your shim/spacer collection and see if you can find one that mesures to the amout of change you want.
You put the shim in and pop test again. If it worked you can jump for joy and move on to the next Injector.

More likely is that it did not work. The reason it did not work is that each Injector Spring has its own spring tension. A 1.0mm spacer may change 1 Injector spring 5 Bar and may only change another injector spring 2 bar.

So you write down the new pop pressure and find the differance between that and the old pop pressure. Now you make a little formula for your Injector spring How much thickness got you how much pressure change. Now you calculate the next size shim you need and go looking again in your shim box collection for the newly calculated size you think you need.

What you often find is that you have no shim that will give you the exact pressure you want. That is why the FSM has a 5 Bar allowble differance in the balance.
Also your calculation for 1 Injector most likely will not work on the next you need to do it for each individual injector.

While the callculation you make to pick the next size shim you need is helpful and necessary it is still mostly trial and error.

So if you need to change a shim/spacer after the first pop test if you are really lucky you will take the Injector apart and pop test them 2-3 times. But it could be more times and each time the Injector is apart you risk getting somethin in it like dirt.

Fuel Injection Shop Rates are too regional to comment on. You will need to call the shops in your area and ask them, By calling or Emailing they you would not feel pressure to have the work done there. If they try that just tell them the Injectors are still in the Engine and you need you Car right now.
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  #20  
Old 10-10-2009, 12:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Diesel911 View Post
There is no way know how many attempts.
There is a way to calculate an "average." I am interesting in finding out how many attempts, on average, is required for a qualified person to adjust an injector.


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Originally Posted by Diesel911 View Post

Fuel Injection Shop Rates are too regional to comment on. You will need to call the shops in your area and ask them.
My question was a bit more "global" in nature. So, if anyone would like provide some insight about rates in any region, I would appreciate it.

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You use the estimate of from the FSM 0.50 shim/spacer change = 3 Bar of pressure change.
I think you slipped a decimal point.

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Originally Posted by Diesel911 View Post


A 1.0mm spacer may change 1 Injector spring 5 Bar and may only change another injector spring 2 bar.
By FSM standards, a 1.0 mm shim change should change the pressure by 60 bar.

Last edited by tangofox007; 10-10-2009 at 12:45 PM.
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  #21  
Old 10-10-2009, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by tangofox007 View Post
There is a way to calculate an "average." I am interesting in finding out how many attempts, on average, is required for a qualified person to adjust an injector.




My question was a bit more "global" in nature. So, if anyone would like provide some insight about rates in any region, I would appreciate it.



I think you slipped a decimal point.



By FSM standards, a 1.0 mm shim change should change the pressure by 60 bar.
When I did that sort of work was between 1975-1980 to far back for me to remember sepcifics. What ever time it took to do the job had to be taken. To get any sort of average you would need to do some record keeping and it would help if you did a large volume of Injectors.

The other problem is that in Our Shop you took the Injectors apart and soaked them in Carburator cleaner. While that was going on you did something else (this makes it difficult to keep track of time). There might be several times when you would pause working on those Injectors to do something else.

Also there are equipment issues. We had an automatic Lapping machine that would work on some of Injector Parts. Other parts of the Injector were lapped by hand.

Doing it at home in my garage takes me longer than it did whe I worked in a Shop.

Since I have owned my own Diesel Cars I have always rebuilt the Injectors myself so I have no Idea what shop charges.

I could easily slip a decimal point or make other errors. In any event we have an Injector rebuilding thread some where that has more specific specs.
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  #22  
Old 10-11-2009, 03:15 AM
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Originally Posted by tangofox007 View Post
There is a way to calculate an "average." I am interesting in finding out how many attempts, on average, is required for a qualified person to adjust an injector. .

I am going to say that a qualified and experienced Operator over a large number of Injectors would average between 2 and 3 attempts per Injector. A really good competition ready guy would do 2 or less.
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  #23  
Old 10-11-2009, 03:23 AM
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Originally Posted by tangofox007 View Post
There is
By FSM standards, a 1.0 mm shim change should change the pressure by 60 bar.
Correct. Here is a table I made out for the job and I have it hanging over my bench. It converts to PSI since the meter on the Tester is normally in PSI. Think and work in PSI and you will develop a sixth sense much more quickly.

Shim Selection Guide
mm Bar PSI
0.05 3 43.5
0.1 6 87
0.15 9 130.5
0.2 12 174
0.25 15 217.5
0.3 18 261
0.35 21 304.5
0.4 24 348
0.45 27 391.5
0.5 30 435
0.55 33 478.5
0.6 36 522
0.65 39 565.5
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  #24  
Old 10-11-2009, 03:54 PM
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I am going to say that a qualified and experienced Operator over a large number of Injectors would average between 2 and 3 attempts per Injector. A really good competition ready guy would do 2 or less.
Thanks; that is good info. What type of pressure tester did you use for your injectors?


Last edited by tangofox007; 10-11-2009 at 04:11 PM.
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