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  #16  
Old 12-11-2009, 04:53 PM
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Air leak as suggested or bad injection pump is an unusual possibility. Have you been running a lot of unheated or even heated vegatable oil? If so the injection pump elements might be able to compress the vegatable oil but not the thinner diesel fuel. Because of wear or water damage in the fit of the pump elements.

Do you even know if the lift pump is operational? Or providing fuel? If the engine will run with a mixture of vegatable oil out of a bottle. Yet not run out of the same bottle with diesel fuel in it the injection pump may be finished.


Last edited by barry123400; 12-11-2009 at 04:58 PM.
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  #17  
Old 12-11-2009, 05:01 PM
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here is a video!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdyDdXdUuyM

Are you saying its possible that the lift pump might not be working properly with straight diesel? Its definitely working with the 50/50 mix.
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Last edited by paul46; 12-11-2009 at 05:11 PM.
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  #18  
Old 12-11-2009, 07:05 PM
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Answer

Fuel starvation several possible issues:


Lift pump valves only:


OM617.951 and .952 Lift pump Repair kit W126.120 300SD W123.133 300D

Plastic fuel lines, injection pump, OM616, 617.912, 617.952
OM616, 617.912, 617.952, Plastic fuel lines, injection pump

I'm baffled and at wit's end!?!?!?!?!
I'm baffled and at wit's end!?!?!?!?!

Fuel injection pump starvation with good a good lift pump
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/247039-fuel-injection-pump-starvation-good-lift-pump.html#post2133911

fuel pressure
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/249082-fuel-pressure.html#post2156755

so, what does that rack damper bolt (617) actually do?
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/183139-so-what-does-rack-damper-bolt-617-actually-do.html#post1458468

Part# rack dampener pin for 1985 300SD
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/120005-part-rack-damper-pin-1985-300sd.html#post858324

Adjusting the Rack Damper Bolt
http://articles.mbz.org/engine/diesel/rackbolt/

Replacing Rack dampener pin
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/176580-replacing-rack-dampener-pin.html#post1391845




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Last edited by whunter; 12-11-2009 at 07:15 PM.
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  #19  
Old 12-11-2009, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paul46 View Post
here is a video!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdyDdXdUuyM

Are you saying its possible that the lift pump might not be working properly with straight diesel? Its definitely working with the 50/50 mix.
Thats a possibility as well I think. Glad you brought it up. But no I was thinking the injection pump might be worn.

When feeding the injection pump from the bottle remove the return line from the injection pump. If the vegatable oil is coming out when cranking the engine. If the engine also will run this way let it run for a moment. Do the same test using diesel fuel. If it spills out the return line the same as the vegatable oil did. Yet if the engine will now not run with the diesel fuel. It is almost certainly a worn injection pump.

This simple test also verifies that the lift pump is or is not pumping both fuels. If no fuel spills out that port with the diesel fuel after the system is hand primed again. Yet it will with the vegatable oil. Then you are right. Somehow or other the lift pump is pumping the vegatable oil but not the diesel fuel. I would not expect that but in servicing things almost anything is possible in life.

This whole thread might go a little quicker towards a resolution if you let us know how much vegatable oil if any you have been using. If none quote that as well.

Was the video clip on vegatable oil? I never easily suspect the injection pump. Being able to run on thicker viscosity vegatable oil but not on the thinner diesel fuel does bring it into question for me. Hindsight when the actual cause is located is always better.

Last edited by barry123400; 12-11-2009 at 07:44 PM.
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  #20  
Old 12-11-2009, 07:27 PM
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Agree

Quote:
Originally Posted by BoiseBenz View Post
NO MORE ETHER!!!

You probably have an air leak, likely at your primer pump (old style, while knob you loosen, then pump; new style black plunger).

The ALDA nut is captured on the bottom of the unit and will come off with ALDA. Hold the ALDA still and turn the nut counterclockwise when viewed from the top.
Bad things will happen.


"Ether", use and abuse. *Flame suit on*
"Ether", use and abuse. *Flame suit on*
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  #21  
Old 12-12-2009, 02:06 AM
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whunter: Thanks, read the treads on the ether and all the other ones you mentioned. Will order the parts to rebuild the lift pump. I have two other 617's with lift pumps while I'm waiting for the parts I could try them. Isn't Peach Parts in Atlanta? Maybe I could go by and pick them up? Don't know if you viewed my video but it seems I have a problem with it wanting to run away instead of starving for fuel and dieing.


Barry123400: Yes, it was running wvo for a few months but not for a very long time. I really don't want to accept that the IP is gone. I will try to rebuild the lift pump and make sure that its ok. Then I will try some adjustments to the IP before giving up on the IP itself.

A month or so ago the engine would barely run and by cracking the lines at the injectors determine that #3 and #5 were not functioning at idle. After the MMO treatment they are now working as the video shows. I've got to get to the bottom of these problems and I'm not going to buy a rebuilt IP. I'll rebuild it myself if necessary even if I don't know how yet.

Any idea as to why the engine wants to run away like that? That has got to be something stuck in the IP because the linkage is fine. Could it be something to do with the fact the ALDA linkage inside was messed with by pulling it up previously?

I'll try the straight diesel in the can and see what it does now. If I can get this thing to run normally I'll run it on the 50/50 mix if I have to.

As per the video, any comment on my intake setup?

Thanks for your feedback.
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  #22  
Old 12-12-2009, 10:24 AM
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Answer

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul46 View Post
whunter: Thanks, read the treads on the ether and all the other ones you mentioned. Will order the parts to rebuild the lift pump. I have two other 617's with lift pumps while I'm waiting for the parts I could try them. Isn't Peach Parts in Atlanta? Maybe I could go by and pick them up? Don't know if you viewed my video but it seems I have a problem with it wanting to run away instead of starving for fuel and dieing.


Barry123400: Yes, it was running wvo for a few months but not for a very long time. I really don't want to accept that the IP is gone. I will try to rebuild the lift pump and make sure that its ok. Then I will try some adjustments to the IP before giving up on the IP itself.

A month or so ago the engine would barely run and by cracking the lines at the injectors determine that #3 and #5 were not functioning at idle. After the MMO treatment they are now working as the video shows. I've got to get to the bottom of these problems and I'm not going to buy a rebuilt IP. I'll rebuild it myself if necessary even if I don't know how yet.

Any idea as to why the engine wants to run away like that? That has got to be something stuck in the IP because the linkage is fine. Could it be something to do with the fact the ALDA linkage inside was messed with by pulling it up previously?

I'll try the straight diesel in the can and see what it does now. If I can get this thing to run normally I'll run it on the 50/50 mix if I have to.

As per the video, any comment on my intake setup?

Thanks for your feedback.
Yes, the ALDA linkadge is probabbly wrecked = the governor, injector rack, and shutoff linkage should also be damaged..

The ALDA must come off to access the captured C-clip that retains the pin you where prying on, while trying to remove the upper cover...

Here is a link to the tools you will need to fix it correctly.

Making a video: Rebuilding injection pump
Making a video: Rebuilding injection pump



ALDA issue threads
ALDA issue threads

Diesel Injection:
Diesel Injection:

Run away diesel, why does it happen?
Run away diesel, why does it happen?

RE: As per the video, any comment on my intake setup?

K&N filter topic links thread
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diy-links-parts-category/173036-k-n-filter-topic-links-thread.html#post1354738

Last edited by whunter; 12-12-2009 at 11:58 PM. Reason: added more links
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  #23  
Old 12-12-2009, 07:12 PM
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Most of us would not like to pay a shop to rebuild an injection pump either. The vast majority of these cars are not in the salvage yards because of failed injection pumps as well..

Anyways always prove the injection pump it is good or bad first. Buying things that are not proven bad is no fun. The tests I suggested would do this.What we feel as individuals is not the issue really.

The true issue is rooting out whatever the real problem is and dealing with it. Mr.Hunter is probably right in that you may also have to repair any self inflicted disturbance to the alda area.

Or a chance on a cheap used injection pump is in order if it is proven the problem. The pick and pulls in your area may even have return policies if the 50-100.00 dollar replacement is bad as well. Hope you have some salvage yards in your area with old mercedes cars. I no longer have any.

Always remove any replacement injection pump from the engine. If already off the engine it may have been sitting around dry with no fuel in it for a very long time. That is adding a real risk.

If I want to store a good used injection pump I usually immerse it in diesel fuel in a can and seal it.

A little while ago having to flush the pump with a chemical to get the two injectors or elements activated was not good. It indicates a lot of something was getting into the system where it is not supposed to be. There may still be some junk present in there.

It is both not practical and virtually impossible to do major injection pump reconditioning at home. Besides the knowledge and parts you would need very special equipment. In addition it is a piece of real precision equipment..

It always amazes me how long these in line injection pumps can last with good care. By the same token they can be ruined very fast.

I have thought of an even easier test if you are waiting for the lift pump kit to arrive. Elevate a diesel fuel supply well above the car with really clean diesel fuel in it. Feed a hose directly to the injection pump.Bleed your new fuel supply by loosening the return valve until fuel comes out. If the engine will not run with this setup in my mind the injection pump goes if you want to burn straight diesel fuel.

If you are content to run the 50/50 mix then just repair the alda area. I would also run a solvent into the injection pump and let it soak as well. A lot of mess in there could still be present. Causing some additional problems.

Once again I usually never suspect the injection pump early in the game. Some of your symptoms just seem to make it a good possibility this time around. Anyways keep at it. It can be a real learning experience.

Last edited by barry123400; 12-12-2009 at 07:22 PM.
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  #24  
Old 12-13-2009, 12:29 AM
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I connected the vacuum valve lines incorrectly and it ruined the transmission because full vacuum was going to the transmission all the time. So be careful with the vacuum valve.
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  #25  
Old 12-13-2009, 12:46 AM
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Attention:

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul46 View Post
Is the white thing next to the alda that I guess regulates vacuum with the throdle necessary? it T's with a vacuum line that goes to the transmission. I removed it to try and get the alda off. I still have not been able to get the thing off.
The white plastic valve you took off the rear of the injection pump IS needed for correct transmission function.
It is made of Unobtainium, and can'tgettium = MB stopped making them in 1988, the last new stock was sold in 1997-1998.

If you don't want it, sell it to a member who needs it..
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  #26  
Old 12-13-2009, 03:20 AM
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I really do appreciate the feedback on this stuff, even if its stuff I don't like to hear. So, basically if I want to rebuild the IP I need buy a $148,000.00 machine and then need to be educated for a long time before I could even think about it... I get it.

Today was cold here in Atlanta about 35. I managed to go out and try to start the car again. After two cranks it started up and idled perfect then I pulled the linkage full open and it reacted perfectly normal the engine revved and went back to idle immediately as it should. It did this several times. Once the engine began to warm up it began to take longer and longer for it to return to idle until eventually it acted just the same as it did in the video. This is an indication to me that the problem is relative to the heat of the IP, so something must be swelling with the heat that is binding or sticking. It is still on the 50/50 mix from the tank, which is another factor. And I know there are probably many more.

I also was able to pick up some straight clean diesel
that I will try in the test you suggested in the morning.

If I ever get this IP to work properly I'll put the white plastic vacuum regulator for the tranny back on it. I would like to swap the auto for a manual eventually.

FYI I bought an 84 300sd that was not running for $200 about two years ago. It was sitting in a field for a long time. My son and I went to pick it up with a battery a can of diesel, some oil, and a small air compressor. After an hour of messing with it we drove it home. I pulled that engine and tranny and put them in my 1980 123 that I paid $800 for. I still have the non turbo 617 that was in the 123 that ran perfect. The 83 300sd that I'm working on now we paid $1300 for.

I say all that because as you can see I don't have a lot invested in these cars. I'm not gonna spend hundreds to rebuild an injection pump when you can find a whole car that actually runs good out there for less than an injection pump. Since I don't have a lot invested I'm not afraid to try stuff. I realize I need to be careful with these diesels and I appreciate the warnings and the education I'm getting from all those on this site. I'm not a mechanic and don't have a lot of experience, never done any of this stuff before. I am retired and enjoy getting things to work.
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  #27  
Old 12-13-2009, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paul46 View Post
I really do appreciate the feedback on this stuff, even if its stuff I don't like to hear. So, basically if I want to rebuild the IP I need buy a $148,000.00 machine and then need to be educated for a long time before I could even think about it... I get it.

Today was cold here in Atlanta about 35. I managed to go out and try to start the car again. After two cranks it started up and idled perfect then I pulled the linkage full open and it reacted perfectly normal the engine revved and went back to idle immediately as it should. It did this several times. Once the engine began to warm up it began to take longer and longer for it to return to idle until eventually it acted just the same as it did in the video. This is an indication to me that the problem is relative to the heat of the IP, so something must be swelling with the heat that is binding or sticking. It is still on the 50/50 mix from the tank, which is another factor. And I know there are probably many more.

I also was able to pick up some straight clean diesel
that I will try in the test you suggested in the morning.

If I ever get this IP to work properly I'll put the white plastic vacuum regulator for the tranny back on it. I would like to swap the auto for a manual eventually.

FYI I bought an 84 300sd that was not running for $200 about two years ago. It was sitting in a field for a long time. My son and I went to pick it up with a battery a can of diesel, some oil, and a small air compressor. After an hour of messing with it we drove it home. I pulled that engine and tranny and put them in my 1980 123 that I paid $800 for. I still have the non turbo 617 that was in the 123 that ran perfect. The 83 300sd that I'm working on now we paid $1300 for.

I say all that because as you can see I don't have a lot invested in these cars. I'm not gonna spend hundreds to rebuild an injection pump when you can find a whole car that actually runs good out there for less than an injection pump. Since I don't have a lot invested I'm not afraid to try stuff. I realize I need to be careful with these diesels and I appreciate the warnings and the education I'm getting from all those on this site. I'm not a mechanic and don't have a lot of experience, never done any of this stuff before. I am retired and enjoy getting things to work.
No problem with what you mention. I am am retired and staying very busy as well. Plus some of us that own these cars are also some what financially conservative. So tight we squeek when we walk comes to mind. I cannot believe I just typed that either. Believe me you are not alone.

It is also a pretty sure bet the majority on this site would not run to an injection pump rebuilder either. Instead using whatever it took to locate a cheap good used one if really needed.

You might have noticed there were no suggestions to run to a pump rebuilder in the thread. Or even that the injection pump has really failed. It is just a possibility at this point. If the injection pump is capable of feeding the engine with straight diesel fuel is the question.

I again would try to use a safe but serious solvent to clean out the pump. The run up as the car warms up may be a byproduct of the temperature change in there on whatever is in the pump that should not be in there.

There are no conventional seals in there either I believe. Not totally sure though as I have never taken one apart. Yellit a very knowledgeable member. On the otherhand has to try to understand exactly how they function. Several other members have as well. Just their names escape me at the moment. At least one has worked in a shop repairing injection pumps.
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  #28  
Old 12-13-2009, 05:55 PM
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No, U take the IP to a shop with the $148,000 machine and trained personnel.


P E H
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  #29  
Old 12-13-2009, 11:54 PM
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Hmmm

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul46 View Post
I really do appreciate the feedback on this stuff, even if its stuff I don't like to hear. So, basically if I want to rebuild the IP I need buy a $148,000.00 machine and then need to be educated for a long time before I could even think about it... I get it.
My local BOSCH Rebuild shop uses four machines.

Roughly:

#1. $148,000.00 machine
#2. $300.000.00 machine
#3. $300,000.00 machine
#4. $750,000.00 machine

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  #30  
Old 12-15-2009, 06:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barry123400 View Post
Thats a possibility as well I think. Glad you brought it up. But no I was thinking the injection pump might be worn.

When feeding the injection pump from the bottle remove the return line from the injection pump. If the vegatable oil is coming out when cranking the engine. If the engine also will run this way let it run for a moment. Do the same test using diesel fuel. If it spills out the return line the same as the vegatable oil did. Yet if the engine will now not run with the diesel fuel. It is almost certainly a worn injection pump.

This simple test also verifies that the lift pump is or is not pumping both fuels. If no fuel spills out that port with the diesel fuel after the system is hand primed again. Yet it will with the vegatable oil. Then you are right. Somehow or other the lift pump is pumping the vegatable oil but not the diesel fuel. I would not expect that but in servicing things almost anything is possible in life.

This whole thread might go a little quicker towards a resolution if you let us know how much vegatable oil if any you have been using. If none quote that as well.

Was the video clip on vegatable oil? I never easily suspect the injection pump. Being able to run on thicker viscosity vegatable oil but not on the thinner diesel fuel does bring it into question for me. Hindsight when the actual cause is located is always better.
Well today I went out again and it started up fine and idled and revved and returned to idle normally on the tank mix of 50/50. Then I setup a bottle of straight diesel (the low sulfur not off road diesel) under the hood. Hand pumped until I got fuel out the return line. I'm sure there was still some 50/50 mix in the IP and spin on filter. Then I started it up again and it started and I had it idling, but as soon as I got out of the car it stalled. I could not view the fuel rate coming out the return line. I started it again this time it took several cranks and I had it floored. It started and came up to about 2000 rpm as soon as let my foot off just a little it came down in rpm and stalled. I never could get it started again, wore out a fresh battery. When hand pumping the diesel it is coming out the return line at the same rate as the 50/50 mix was. I guess that means the pump is worn according to your theory.

Its just seems weird to me that the pump works in the opposite way with the 50/50 mix it will idle but wants to accelerate on its own when its hot.. but with the diesel it won't idle and it will stall from a high rpm if you hold the linkage in one place.

I guess the next thing for me to do is to take the IP off my 80 617 NA engine that has been on a stand for a year and try it on this 83 617 turbo.
The two pumps are a little different will they work interchangeably?

Then I'll work on cleaning and repairing the 83's pump. I'll have to figure out how to put the pump on and time it which I can find on here somewhere. I would hope that the pump was engineered to only go on in the correct rough timing. I'll see after I take one off.

Barry, The 46 after my name in my ID is the year I was born. Also, about 2 years ago Yellit helped me a lot to get a stuck DV in a 74 115 that I finally got running. Thanks again for your help and support.

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Last edited by paul46; 12-15-2009 at 06:31 PM.
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