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  #31  
Old 12-15-2009, 06:51 PM
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Is there any way U can measure the fuel pressure in the IP? It can be measured anyplace between the fuel pump and the IP

The fuel pump (its not a lift pump like a carbureated engine has) should create enough pressure to open the relief valve on the IP.

I don't know what the ideal pressure should be but someone else might. The IP relief valve could be another reason for not enough fuel pressure in the IP.

There has to be some pressure in the IP to push the fuel into the barrels of the IP.

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  #32  
Old 12-15-2009, 11:58 PM
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To technically make the test conclusive. Run your fifty fifty mix in the external fuel supply set up as well. Duplicate the same set up as close to possible you had with the diesel fuel.

It does not suprise me that the engine ran initially with the diesel fuel as there would still be a diluted mix to some extent remaining in the injection pump. Once that was consumed though you where on straight diesel. Always best to double check.

Also I hope you where not running the remote supply through the fuel filter. That filter would be too restrictive for a gravity set up I suspect. From your set up right to the input of the injection pump is required. One has to be very careful not to ruin the validity of any test when avoiding instrumentation.

If for example I experienced a simular problem my first move would be to measure the feed pressure in the base of the pump with both types of fuel. If feed pressure remained about the same I would consider it pretty conclusive.

Thats if large amounts of air were not being expelled out the return line sitting with the end of the hose under fluid in a small vessel. With either fuel. You have to first make sure the lift pump does develop enough pressure to open the relief valve first.The risk if attempted without a gauge is you do not know the pressure the relief valve is opening at.

Constructing good tests is a challenge. The first is will it be deffinative enough to meet the need? Then any variables that may upset the applecart or validity of the test must be considered. You are close to absolutly proving your issue but not quite there yet in my humble opinion. I was hatched in 1942 by the way.

I am certainly not infallable either. Even today I had to construct a test to determine where an intermittent condition was coming from. For a short period I thought I was in over my head.

Then the test showed where the problem was originating from. Random intermittent issues almost demand a thoughtful approach. I will not shotgun things usually. I have unfortunatly seen a few real head scatchers in my time.

Tomorrow I purchase an otherwise good car that quits at any random speed after about an hour on the road. Usually starts right up again and will run for about another hour and repeat.

The owner is at his wits end with trying and paying many times to get the issue resolved. The selling price reflects this.

Last edited by barry123400; 12-16-2009 at 01:06 AM.
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  #33  
Old 12-16-2009, 12:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P.E.Haiges View Post
Is there any way U can measure the fuel pressure in the IP? It can be measured anyplace between the fuel pump and the IP

The fuel pump (its not a lift pump like a carbureated engine has) should create enough pressure to open the relief valve on the IP.

I don't know what the ideal pressure should be but someone else might. The IP relief valve could be another reason for not enough fuel pressure in the IP.

There has to be some pressure in the IP to push the fuel into the barrels of the IP.
He could also now feed in diesel before the lift pump and make sure there is output at the relief valve. If the overflow is there during the test. Plus the engine becomes unable to run it is a good verification .

The problem is all the fifty/fifty product in the fuel filter would have to be more or less hand pump displaced or it will be quite awhile till the injection pump sees the diesel fuel.
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  #34  
Old 12-16-2009, 01:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by P.E.Haiges View Post
Is there any way U can measure the fuel pressure in the IP? It can be measured anyplace between the fuel pump and the IP

The fuel pump (its not a lift pump like a carbureated engine has) should create enough pressure to open the relief valve on the IP.

I don't know what the ideal pressure should be but someone else might. The IP relief valve could be another reason for not enough fuel pressure in the IP.

There has to be some pressure in the IP to push the fuel into the barrels of the IP.
To check the fuel pressure after the fuel pump I'll have to remove the hard fuel line that goes to the spin on filter and put some rubber hose an some kind of pressure gauge on it. I'll have to look around for a gauge. I have the hose. Once you remove those hard lines it looks near impossible to get them back on, is that right? I could use the other IP relief valve from the other pump I have and try that also.

But it seems to me that ultimately I'm gonna have to remove the IP.

Does anyone know if the 617 NA IP will work on a 617 turbo?
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  #35  
Old 12-16-2009, 02:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by barry123400 View Post
To technically make the test conclusive. Run your fifty fifty mix in the external fuel supply set up as well. Duplicate the same set up as close to possible you had with the diesel fuel.
I did this originally from the bottle that's how I determined it would run on svo. First I tried just straight veggie oil to see if it would start because I had straight diesel in the tank originally. It ran so I added 50% diesel to the bottle and it still ran. Then I added removed the diesel from the tank and added my 50/50 mix to the tank and drove until it got hot and then stalled and would not start.

Quote:
Originally Posted by barry123400 View Post
Also I hope you where not running the remote supply through the fuel filter. That filter would be too restrictive for a gravity set up I suspect. From your set up right to the input of the injection pump is required. One has to be very careful not to ruin the validity of any test when avoiding instrumentation.
I did run it from the bottle through the primary filter the same as it comes from the tank. It seems to me that the tank or the bottle the fuel pump is still pumping from fuel that is not under pressure. Since it works so well on the 50/50 mix from the tank I'm assuming that the lines are not clogged. I know the line from the bottle is clean. It should be the same flow from the bottle or the tank. Right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by barry123400 View Post
If for example I experienced a simular problem my first move would be to measure the feed pressure in the base of the pump with both types of fuel. If feed pressure remained about the same I would consider it pretty conclusive.

Thats if large amounts of air were not being expelled out the return line sitting with the end of the hose under fluid in a small vessel. With either fuel. You have to first make sure the lift pump does develop enough pressure to open the relief valve first.The risk if attempted without a gauge is you do not know the pressure the relief valve is opening at.
I'll try this after the primary filter from both sources and see what I get.

The return line was not submerged in the bottle so I could see the fuel being returned. When using the hand pump you can hear the relief valve opening and see the fuel going into the bottle. Since I don't have anyone to help me here I could never see the engine running and returning fuel because it wouldn't run long enough for me to get out of the car to see.


Quote:
Originally Posted by barry123400 View Post
Tomorrow I purchase an otherwise good car that quits at any random speed after about an hour on the road. Usually starts right up again and will run for about another hour and repeat.

The owner is at his wits end with trying and paying many times to get the issue resolved. The selling price reflects this.
Sounds like a real challenge you are about to get into. It may even be the same problem I have with the IP getting hot and failing.

It must be rather chilly up there in Nova Scotia. I've got some family roots up that way.
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  #36  
Old 12-16-2009, 10:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whunter View Post
My local BOSCH Rebuild shop uses four machines.

Roughly:

#1. $148,000.00 machine
#2. $300.000.00 machine
#3. $300,000.00 machine
#4. $750,000.00 machine

I wonder what the profit margins on these machines are?
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  #37  
Old 12-16-2009, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paul46 View Post
I did this originally from the bottle that's how I determined it would run on svo. First I tried just straight veggie oil to see if it would start because I had straight diesel in the tank originally. It ran so I added 50% diesel to the bottle and it still ran. Then I added removed the diesel from the tank and added my 50/50 mix to the tank and drove until it got hot and then stalled and would not start.



I did run it from the bottle through the primary filter the same as it comes from the tank. It seems to me that the tank or the bottle the fuel pump is still pumping from fuel that is not under pressure. Since it works so well on the 50/50 mix from the tank I'm assuming that the lines are not clogged. I know the line from the bottle is clean. It should be the same flow from the bottle or the tank. Right?



I'll try this after the primary filter from both sources and see what I get.

The return line was not submerged in the bottle so I could see the fuel being returned. When using the hand pump you can hear the relief valve opening and see the fuel going into the bottle. Since I don't have anyone to help me here I could never see the engine running and returning fuel because it wouldn't run long enough for me to get out of the car to see.




Sounds like a real challenge you are about to get into. It may even be the same problem I have with the IP getting hot and failing.

It must be rather chilly up there in Nova Scotia. I've got some family roots up that way.
Sounds like you are applying some thought. Your engine will run with the non turbo pump if required . Just no fuel enrichment on demand. Again depending on where you live a good cheap turbo unit may be at an auto wreckers. Or from an old car sitting somewhere.

. Taking the time to actually meter the pressure is not only a good ideal it tends to make guys like me a better troubleshooter. What is occuring is your understanding of how everything relates is clarifying or solidifying.

Remember you need one of those fluid dampened gauges. Zero to thirty pounds range is ideal. Companies like harbour freight sell them for around 10.00. Since you might be experimenting with fuels I would sway towards making the gauge a permanent installation. I am not or have not been a working mechanic.

In my area the supply once reasonable of 123s has dried up pretty well. Weatherwise it has been an unusually light winter overall this year. I just finished laying a few thousand bricks about three weeks ago.

Was not cold enough that I had to even protect the job from frost. Average day time temperature now is around freezing most days or slightly less. Winters locally seem to have been steadily declining in severity. Seems much colder and snowier along the north eastern eastern United States for at least the last ten years. The summers are not as warm here as they were though. It's the old story. You cannot win.

Last edited by barry123400; 12-16-2009 at 10:37 AM.
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  #38  
Old 12-16-2009, 12:34 PM
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Hmmm

Quote:
Originally Posted by funola View Post
I wonder what the profit margins on these machines are?
Best guess assuming $400.00 per pump:
NOTE: this does not include employee labor cost, insurance, etc, etc...

30 class eight injection pumps every 24 hours, times five days
x260 working days per year
-----
=7800 injection pumps per year

78000 injection pumps per year
x400 assuming a minimum of $400.00 per pump
-----
=3,120,000.00
Business income taxed at a rate of 4.95%

$3,120,000.00
- 4.95%
---------
=2,965,560.00

subtract $38,000 per machine for calibration every six months = $304,000.00
Subtract $140,000 for basic maintenance.

2,965,560.00
184,000.00
- 160,000.00
-------------
= 2,621,560.00

Subtract $225,000.00 for emergency machine repair every year.

2,621,560.00
- 225,000.00
-------------
=2,396,560.00

Now subtract for one machine scheduled for replacement or total rebuild each year.
Union labor to remove/install the machine $60,000.00
Rebuild/replacement five year average $480,000.00
Transport/shipping $7,000.00

2,396,560.00
480,000.00
60,000.00
- 7,000.00
-------------
=1,849,560.00

Again NOTE: this does not include employee labor cost, insurance, etc, etc...

If nothing goes wrong, goes wrong, goes wrong!

Property tax rate: $67.97 per $1000 of assessed value.
Michigan Tax Index 34.541
Firms with apportioned gross receipts under $350,000 are exempt from the Michigan Business Tax
https://treas-secure.state.mi.us/MBTEstimator/MBTEstimator-start.asp

New Michigan Business Tax has few winners: Some report paying 4 times more than before SBT repeal
http://blog.mlive.com/annarbornews/2008/07/it_was_supposed_to_make.html
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  #39  
Old 12-16-2009, 01:54 PM
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Location: NYC
Posts: 8,245
Quote:
Originally Posted by whunter View Post
Best guess assuming $400.00 per pump:
NOTE: this does not include employee labor cost, insurance, etc, etc...

30 class eight injection pumps every 24 hours, times five days
x260 working days per year
-----
=7800 injection pumps per year

78000 injection pumps per year
x400 assuming a minimum of $400.00 per pump
-----
=3,120,000.00
Business income taxed at a rate of 4.95%

$3,120,000.00
- 4.95%
---------
=2,965,560.00

subtract $38,000 per machine for calibration every six months = $304,000.00
Subtract $140,000 for basic maintenance.

2,965,560.00
184,000.00
- 160,000.00
-------------
= 2,621,560.00

Subtract $225,000.00 for emergency machine repair every year.

2,621,560.00
- 225,000.00
-------------
=2,396,560.00

Now subtract for one machine scheduled for replacement or total rebuild each year.
Union labor to remove/install the machine $60,000.00
Rebuild/replacement five year average $480,000.00
Transport/shipping $7,000.00

2,396,560.00
480,000.00
60,000.00
- 7,000.00
-------------
=1,849,560.00

Again NOTE: this does not include employee labor cost, insurance, etc, etc...

If nothing goes wrong, goes wrong, goes wrong!

Property tax rate: $67.97 per $1000 of assessed value.
Michigan Tax Index 34.541
Firms with apportioned gross receipts under $350,000 are exempt from the Michigan Business Tax
https://treas-secure.state.mi.us/MBTEstimator/MBTEstimator-start.asp

New Michigan Business Tax has few winners: Some report paying 4 times more than before SBT repeal
http://blog.mlive.com/annarbornews/2008/07/it_was_supposed_to_make.html
Wow! I didn't expect such detailed analysis. I was actually asking about profit margin for the manufacturer of the machine. What makes them so expensive to buy and maintain? Sounds like it is more complex than an MRI machine.
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Last edited by funola; 12-16-2009 at 03:35 PM.
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  #40  
Old 12-23-2009, 09:29 PM
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Banjo bolt hard line from fuel filter to IP

Its been a few days since I've had a chance to work on this problem but I've run in to a road block with this pressure gauge test. I do NOT want to destroy a good hard line that runs from the filter to the IP unless I know I can get another. I've searched everywhere on the web and can not find any one who sells the bolt and fitting.

Is there anyone who knows where I can find one?

I've got the gauge and rubber fuel line but can't connect it to the filter output without a banjo bolt and fitting. That is unless I cut the line that was on there.

I'm gonna try to replace the fuel pump and try another test that way I'll at least know if its the pump.
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  #41  
Old 12-23-2009, 10:52 PM
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Answer

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul46 View Post
Its been a few days since I've had a chance to work on this problem but I've run in to a road block with this pressure gauge test. I do NOT want to destroy a good hard line that runs from the filter to the IP unless I know I can get another. I've searched everywhere on the web and can not find any one who sells the bolt and fitting.

Is there anyone who knows where I can find one?

I've got the gauge and rubber fuel line but can't connect it to the filter output without a banjo bolt and fitting. That is unless I cut the line that was on there.

I'm gonna try to replace the fuel pump and try another test that way I'll at least know if its the pump.
Plastic fuel lines, injection pump, OM616, 617.912, 617.952
OM616, 617.912, 617.952, Plastic fuel lines, injection pump
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  #42  
Old 12-28-2009, 03:43 PM
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Thanks for the part info!

Yesterday I was able to test the pressure at the IP with both fuels and they seemed to be the same. It seems that the pressure does not remain constant the gauge is very erratic going from 0 to over 1 bar very fast. Is that normal? both straight diesel and the 50% svo gave the same readings.

I even tried hooking up an electric fuel pump both before and after the fuel pump with no change to my problem. The PSI from the electric fuel pump was supposed to be 14 but it only read about 5. Could that mean that the pressure release bolt is bad on the back of the IP? How much fuel pressure should there be in the IP and should it be constant?. Another question is the pressure released through the injector return lines?

It just doesn't make any sense based on whats happening. I think its a problem with the linkage on the inside of the IP.

Just to recap my problem... I'm able to start the engine and idle the engine and have it run normally on a 50% svo mix, but when it runs for awhile and gets warm the engine will not go back to and idle it wants to increase rpms even with the linkage set at normal idle. I have to hit the stop several times to get it back to idle (as per the video I posted). When its on straight diesel it will not start without some help with starter fluid or wd40. Once running it will not idle and when its running at a good rpm say 2000 or more if you hold the linkage in one place the engine will eventually die as if it were shut off.

Its weird that there is are opposite reactions with just a fuel mix of 50% svo.

Now I'm trying to remove the IP and replace it with a non tubo 617 engine's IP I have on an engine stand. I set both engines with #1 exhaust cam pointing straight up, so that both IP's should be timed exactly the same. I removed the three nuts that are on the front. Any suggestions on how to get the nut off the bottom back of the IP (the one in the car). Its about to make me think its just not worth it.
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  #43  
Old 12-28-2009, 05:55 PM
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Answer

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul46 View Post
Thanks for the part info!

Yesterday I was able to test the pressure at the IP with both fuels and they seemed to be the same. It seems that the pressure does not remain constant the gauge is very erratic going from 0 to over 1 bar very fast. Is that normal? both straight diesel and the 50% svo gave the same readings.

I even tried hooking up an electric fuel pump both before and after the fuel pump with no change to my problem. The PSI from the electric fuel pump was supposed to be 14 but it only read about 5. Could that mean that the pressure release bolt is bad on the back of the IP? How much fuel pressure should there be in the IP and should it be constant?. Another question is the pressure released through the injector return lines?

It just doesn't make any sense based on whats happening. I think its a problem with the linkage on the inside of the IP.

Just to recap my problem... I'm able to start the engine and idle the engine and have it run normally on a 50% svo mix, but when it runs for awhile and gets warm the engine will not go back to and idle it wants to increase rpms even with the linkage set at normal idle. I have to hit the stop several times to get it back to idle (as per the video I posted). When its on straight diesel it will not start without some help with starter fluid or wd40. Once running it will not idle and when its running at a good rpm say 2000 or more if you hold the linkage in one place the engine will eventually die as if it were shut off.

Its weird that there is are opposite reactions with just a fuel mix of 50% svo.

Now I'm trying to remove the IP and replace it with a non tubo 617 engine's IP I have on an engine stand. I set both engines with #1 exhaust cam pointing straight up, so that both IP's should be timed exactly the same. I removed the three nuts that are on the front. Any suggestions on how to get the nut off the bottom back of the IP (the one in the car). Its about to make me think its just not worth it.
Here is all the data you need for the injection pump fuel bypass valve DIY..


Fuel injection pump starvation with good a good lift pump
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/247039-fuel-injection-pump-starvation-good-lift-pump.html#post2133911

fuel pressure
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/diesel-discussion/249082-fuel-pressure.html#post2156755
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  #44  
Old 12-30-2009, 12:27 AM
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Today removed the IP from my 617 119 NA. I determined it was impossible to get it off without removing the oil filter housing. Now I see how the IP fits into the block with a round sleeve with very small grooves inside that fits on opposing grooved shafts both on the IP and the other inside the block. It looks like it is very easy to get out of timing when the two shafts are separated. This means I'll have to go through the IP timing process I guess. I thought I could avoid it since both engines are set to #1 at TDC.

I hope to remove the other IP tomorrow I'll probably take a few days to clean them. Also I stretched the spring to 27mm on the pressure release valve. I'm thinking I'll take the pan off the bottom turn it upside down fill it with MMO or diesel or something and let it sit for a day or so.
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  #45  
Old 01-03-2010, 01:37 AM
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Because of the Holiday and the extreme cold I still have not completely installed the IP from the NA engine. I have both IP's switched now but still need to reconnect the oil filter housing and some fuel lines... I decided not to take off the pan under the IP since the lift (fuel) pump was removed I cleaned it the best I could through the opening in the side of the IP. It looks pretty clean. MMO probably would not do anything anyway in these temps. I'm really wanting to see what happens with this other pump. The original pump with the problem is on the NA engine which is on an engine stand so I'll be able to remove the back plate and see what I find. I'll take some pics when I get to that. Just want to get this 83 300SD running since I have no other wheels. My 80 300D was just officially removed from the road and is going to be used for parts now.

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