OM616,

Count me in for covering the costs on one adapter.

Also, let me know on the inventory of MB adapters;
I have one I can also supply -- just need to pull the torque plate
and dismount it from the 617.912 block.

The G265 mounts to the threaded holes on the BMW 4 cylinder block.
So some sort of through bolts with nuts can work. 10mm bolts, from memory.

__________________
--frankb

1982 300TD 617.912 <NLA> . 1975 2002 E10-EFI . 1976 914c6 . 1983 MG LMIII <NLA>. 1988 Montero / 616<NLA> . 2001 TLS . 2005 Saab 9-5 Wagon

I think you misspoke.

Did you mean to say that you would like to contribute, (donate), the water jetting services in this potential design / development project, and in return have one of, would be 4 adaptor plates then, that "WE ALL", collectively, would have contributed knowledge, time, parts, equipment, and operation costs?

Good to know.

I will not get a chance to look tonight, but tomorrow for sure. I will let you know what I find or don't.

Tonight I will try to get an idea of cost options, (material purchasing price differences), to get an idea of cost for each of us.

Thanks

I don't know how much I can help. It sounds like from your end, you'd have to pay for the water jet cutting. I can check to see if my 'people' are willing to cut out 4 or 5 pieces. Then is it better to have the material purchased here. My e-mail is flaky for the past few days, so contacting the person, who might cut the parts is hampered. I can do drafting work on ProE is needed. I also have acces to some machinery. I would need so dimensions or rough size of the part to determine if and what I can contribute.
I did notice the models in the mcokup picture. If the part needs designed, are there blueprints for the bell houseing and the BMW transmission available or ProE or step models available.

Tom

I'll step out on a very stout, very short limb here.

"Not a chance in hell."

I can make a solid model that is as accurate as my inspection method,
which is limited to largish <36"> Mitutoyo calipers. Not ideal.

Best would be to find someone with a white light or similar video scanning setup.
Perhaps you have access, Tom?

good enough would be a renishaw probe on a 2D CMM.

old school would involve squaring the parts on a surface plate "both ways"
and using a height stand and gage blocks to inspect the hole locations to ±.001" ...
the rest is a piece of cake, and could be done with
pencil and paper.

__________________
--frankb

1982 300TD 617.912 <NLA> . 1975 2002 E10-EFI . 1976 914c6 . 1983 MG LMIII <NLA>. 1988 Montero / 616<NLA> . 2001 TLS . 2005 Saab 9-5 Wagon

I have a friend that sells optical scanning equipment. It truly is incredible the detail you can get from that thing.

However I really try to limit my use of it to exotic projects that really need that technology, like the 8mm element plunger I have coming. He is doing me a favor every time, so I do not want to abuse the privilege. This project, IMO, does not require that kind of accuracy. Remember these cars were designed on surface plates and height gauges. +- .001 is plenty good, the aluminum will grow more than that I bet.

I have a surface plate and good old fashioned measuring equipment. It will take some time to fixture up all the measurement points, but I am willing to put that in the kitty.

I want to be clear with my intentions, I am on my own now, and I am looking for opportunities. It is my intention, if perused, to sell these adaptor plates. I will compensate each person who contributes, (privately of course).

The reality of cost vrs price is still there. Water Jetting will be about $125.00 (est), and there is a lot of wasted material, so depending on how much material the cutter wants to take on, it might be cheaper to buy a 4' X 8' plate, @ about $380/$400, that maybe 6 or 8 rings can be cut out of. Then I have to tool up, drill / ream the holes, and machine out a pocket for the starter nose.

75Sv1
It is not that I want to keep it for my self, and I am all for competition, but to be honest the idea of asking for a free copy of a finished print that other people invested in to have made rubs me the wrong way. I am not saying it was your intention, but that is how I read it.

You are correct regarding the material cost / purchase options being the tricky part. I will get some current material prices and talk to my water guy. If you can see what your water capabilities are that would be great.

Flanklynb
I looked and do not have a MB adaptor plate, however I found one in state for $60.00. It would be good to have to make a checking fixture.
It would be best to have a trans with an input shaft to get the measurements needed, and it would be cheaper to ship a gutted trans than a assembled one. I would buy one from LutzTD but it would be better to use the cash to cover my material and processing costs for the three or four rings. Besides, I have a 4 speed in my 300D now and I really do not feel like getting back into that right now.

I have to get to a meeting. I will send PMs tonight.

IM to you did not consider water jet or multiple production. I took measurements on a Zeiss CMM after squaring the bell surface electronically. I have no issue providing you the dimensions, I believe I even have an electronic file that was the direct output of the CMM. I will have to look for it. I can give you that, but I would like for you to print it or cut it in a light guage sheet first and verify the hole locations against a good bell before you commit your material. the files yours once I find it. you can buy me a beer when you see me....

__________________

1982 300CD Turbo (Otis, "ups & downs") parts for sale
2003 TJ with Hemi (to go anywhere, quickly) sold
2001 Excursion Powerstroke (to go dependably)
1970 Mustang 428SCJ (to go fast)
1962 Corvette LS1 (to go in style)
2001 Schwinn Grape Krate 10spd (if all else fails)

Fantastic! We will figure something out in addition to the beer!!

Good call on the thin template to validate the locations!

The more information I have the better I can "AVERAGE" the hole locations from different measured pieces and processes. Did you reference the Crank centerline when you took the dimensions? That is my concern.

Franklynb, If I made some reference pins for the MB adaptor plate and send them to you, could take some specific reference measurements of the crank center location?

For the most part the hole thing could be jetted, but I would ream the dowel pin holes. But I would have to have a reasonable tolerance for the hole locations, and to do that with confidence I will need to know where the best average hole location is.

I will have some better material and jetting estimates next week.

'75Sv1
It is not that I want to keep it for my self, and I am all for competition, but to be honest the idea of asking for a free copy of a finished print that other people invested in to have made rubs me the wrong way. I am not saying it was your intention, but that is how I read it.

You are correct regarding the material cost / purchase options being the tricky part. I will get some current material prices and talk to my water guy. If you can see what your water capabilities are that would be great.'

No, that sounds about right. And I understand your feelings about freebies, when you've done a lot of work. Been there more than a few times. To be fair to me, there was no mention of a possible commercial venture for this part. It sounded like a few guys make up a part or two, and the rest of us go wanting. I am not interested in making them commercially, especially if someone else is going to. I have other items, I think will be better for me to produce.
I still want to contribute to this project though. It might take a week or so, on the water jet. My work e-mail is down, or barely functioning. Long story. I don't know when it will get back on line. I might have to make a trip to another plant, to see if and how many I can get done. I'd also like to see the outline of the part. I only have so many good will projects I can ask for too. I won't be able to help with measureing of the parts. I can do the drafting work in ProE, if needed and send a DFX, STEP of PDF.
I have done a few bellhousing. I haven't done and adpaters though. It depends on how the two trans are located to thier bellhousings. Usually a pilot diameter and some dowel pins. THe dowels pins usually need +/- .0005 location accuracy. I can check or compare that to parts I have done.
Tom

3D Zeiss file sent to your email address. the center is referenced from the outer lip that seats into the adapter plate. the other center is verification of concentricity.

__________________

1982 300CD Turbo (Otis, "ups & downs") parts for sale
2003 TJ with Hemi (to go anywhere, quickly) sold
2001 Excursion Powerstroke (to go dependably)
1970 Mustang 428SCJ (to go fast)
1962 Corvette LS1 (to go in style)
2001 Schwinn Grape Krate 10spd (if all else fails)

I am still having e-mail problems. So, I am not communicating well with others. I do have some tollerances. The holes the dowel pins will slip into need to have a tolerance of =/- 0.027 and be .12 over the dowel pin size. This is metric, so divide by 25.4 for english. The location needs to be .05 GD&T. The location bores for the pilot diameters of the transmission to the adapter and the adapter to the flywheelhousing needs to be +0.13,-0. The face of the adapter needs a flatness of 0.15. The back needs to be parrallel to 0.1. Hope this helps.
Tom

Great, I will check my mail. Many thanks again. Regarding your last message, I agree, it is ironic to me as these cars started out in the higher end market.

Question, how consistent are the 265 bell housing bolt patterns from early to late models?

General note;

There is also someone looking into 265s possibly used in some truck applications. Could open up the availability and possibly rear ratio options. I am curious to see what they find out.

I am getting a feel for the material cost of a one piece "ring" design vs. a two piece design.

Is there anyone who is "ready to install" (as in "having transmission problems", not "I would like to some day"), a 265 behind a 616/617 and is just waiting for a way to do it, (bell housing or adaptor plate)?

granimal probably would try to bolt on one of your adapters. He made one from welding to bells together but was having vibe issues. I think he is dieing to get a 5spd in his 240. he already has the transmission mount, shifter and driveshaft stuff done

__________________

1982 300CD Turbo (Otis, "ups & downs") parts for sale
2003 TJ with Hemi (to go anywhere, quickly) sold
2001 Excursion Powerstroke (to go dependably)
1970 Mustang 428SCJ (to go fast)
1962 Corvette LS1 (to go in style)
2001 Schwinn Grape Krate 10spd (if all else fails)

Im also working on this idea using 201 chassis transmission parts. havent gotten as far as putting it in a car, but Im concerned about vibration issues as well with the welding.

It will be interesting to see the two way compared. Ive got the housing done on my project, and am working out linkage issues and a larger problem being that my car does not currently run!, but I hope to have the transmission mounted in another month or so.

I have been watching your thread. Definitely hard core work.

I can build a mock up fixture to validate alignment etc. but my concern is with any secondary issues, vibrations, and what not that are prevalent in these types of projects. I am very uncomfortable with the thought of "Selling" a part that has not seen any field testing, so if I make any they will be low in numbers and sold only to those who are willing to assume the risk of any vibes and what have you. One would say that is common sense, but not everyone has common sense these days.

My plan is to get it laid out and quoted. I am on a budget so I have to pick my battles so to speak. I will have a couple made that will go to those who have contributed to the project. Beyond that, without deposits, I will put my funds into my 8mm element project.

All the work will be done, so should someone with cash want one, I would have the process to build one or two as needed.