Headgasket/Timing Chain/Front Gasket Triple feature!
 

So as we escape the arctic and start to have weather that allows human survival I'm beginning to plan a very large project, I almost venture to call it a partial engine rebuild. Serenity has always had two major problems, she leaks oil, and she always has water in her oil. The oil leak is coming from around the front cover and I assume the oil in the water means headgasket. Since these are two jobs that need to be done together i plan on doing them at once, and since the front cover will be off, I figure it's a perfect time to replace the timing chain and rails. My basic plan is...

• Strap chain to cam sprocket
• Remove sprocket after aligning timing marks
• Remove head allowing cam sprocket and chain to pass through
• Remove front cover
• Replace Chain rails
• Reseal front cover
• Install head with new gasket
• Reattach cam sprocket
• Roll in new chain
• Take a drive!

Does anyone have any comments on my plan or forsee an pitfalls, am I downright mad? If you were doing this would you work on the engine in place or pull the engine, do the work, and reinstall. Obviously the work would be easier with the engine out, but that does mean getting an engine crane and then there's that whole pulling the engine thing...

Questions? Comments? Snide Remarks?

If you can afford the time, I would go through and pull the engine, but for other reasons. This give you the chance to inspect several items and replace them easily. In a situation like this, I would also check motor mounts, tranny mount, check condition of all oil cooler hoses,and AC; even, if I had the time, have the radiator boiled out by a pro while it's all out. This would mean, all things being equal that you probably wouldn't have to do any serious work on the car for maybe another 175,000 miles, which is pretty good.

When I get the chance, as long as I have the time and space, I use it to check out and replace such items as the exhaust manifold bolts, replacing them with stainless steel ones, and coat the threads with cupro-nickel high temp anti-sieze, so if I need to remove that stuff, nothing breaks. Stuff like that just makes life easier when you have to do a repair job and everything else is just going against you. My two cents.

Plan for the worst case scenario that the cylinder head is cracked and damaged and will require replacement, because you could end up waiting weeks if not months to find a replacement if you’re not ready to send $2000 for a new replacement!

Engine must come out to do a proper job on the timing cover. While its out...well uhhh...you get the picture.

I was hoping that would be everyone's response. Even with the extra work I was pretty sure the job could be done better with the engine out. Looks like I've got some fun ahead!

FSM method is pretty clear so a disc copy of the manual would be a must as well. Make sure you take the head to a machine shop for a pressure test. I got a 601 sitting on a stand in my garage right now...

Good luck,
geoff

sounds like a lot of trouble if you ask me....

You're looking at more than $3K worth of parts when you get into this deal............and a replacement head is almost a certainty.

Are you sure you want to spend that kind of money on an engine with 400K on the clock? For that money, you could find one with half the mileage and you wouldn't need to do any of the work............just the swap.

How long do you believe the lower end is going to last?

Yeah, Every night when I get in from work it's staring me in the face. There's just something about an engine that needs work on a stand - tugs at my heart strings... :heart:

Honestly 400k with a #14 (failing) head you're just looking for trouble. I'd try and find a junkyard engine and throw it in, probably going to be more cost effective in the long run. THe money on timing chain and all that could be put into refreshing a different engine with many less miles. If water has been getting into your oil you might have really jeopardized your lower end at this point as well.

P.S. I will be doing the exact same job on my 617 when I yank it out...seems like a big project but it is logical to replace all of that at the same time.

before you buy any parts, open up the engine and measure some critical components like bore regularity and piston diameter. Inspect the head closely, as suggested.

at 400k you will need rings, but if you need pistons and sleeves.. that engine is not worth it.

Hi Geoff, can you direct me to where it shows how to remove the cylinder head in the FSM? I have the CD and couldn't find it anywhere. For that matter the closest I could find to replacing the timing chain was replacing the cam gear and checking the timing. In the Technical data paper manual they only have the torque specs instead of the procedure. Maybe they simply have less info on the 617? Sorry if its an odd question.

In the 601,602, 603 FSM's that procedure is outlined in section 01. For my engine (602.911) it is 01-415.

Not sure what 617 manuals call out.

I'm Curious how you got that number? Why 3K, that seems extremely high. Also I think the head is perfectly reusable, the "14" heads may have a higher failure rate but as long as they are NEVER overheated I see no reason they are a ticking bomb. As far as the bottom end, there is no water in the oil, there is only a small amount of oil in the water. The headgasket is not in dire need of repair, I would drive on were it not for the oil leak from the front of the engine that will require a new headgasket to seal to the front cover.

I would pull it also. I did a top end, timing cover/chains/rails, oil pan removal on a BMW with the short block in the frame... never again. Would have spent less time and would have been able to install a new rear main also. Not to mention FAR more access to everything along with the ease to clean...

There is NO way I would reinstall a head without having it rebuilt, let alone not at least inspecting it. Plus with it being an early casting, I would look for at least a No 17. They are out there, you just have to look. Hell, most of the time people do not even know they are valuable. I paid $20 for one... but I am the proverbial junkyard dog.

The mileage is a concern to me too. I knew of one 603 running at 400k and it ran fine. Yet with the others, I do not think I would go that deep into labor with that high of a mile bottom end. Think of gauze and a Band-Aid when you need a hospital. It will only get you so far.

I agree with inspecting the head, I just don't feel that seeing a "14" casting should have me running for another head before I've even begun the job.

Heads are out there for low cost, if you look. I parted out an '86 SDL with a No 17 head I acquired for nearly nothing... trashed interior (BROWN!), suspension was dead, and oil pan cracked.

For the amount of time and funds you are going to spend, to me, it would be foolish not to upgrade to a later head. There is no better time and you did not purchase the car new... it could easily have been overheated in the past and the casting could be weak.

In that case, good luck with your project.

Before you wash your hands of me as a lost cause:o How did you get the 3K?

Consider these estimates without diligent research on current prices:

Used cylinder head: $700.
Valves, prechambers, seats, guides, seals, springs: $1000. (including labor at Metric)
Chain, tensioning rail, upper guide rail, lower guide rail, tensioner:$350.
Gasket set for head and timing cover: $150.
Cylinder head bolts: $100.
Camshaft and crankshaft sprockets: $200.
Oil pump and chain: $400.
Misc.: $100.


You might cut corners and fail to replace items that desperately need it............because the cost just gets too great.

Here's a sample of some parts I got a couple of years ago:

Head_______________________qty_____each_______net
Valve stem seal kit____________1______$14.92_____$14.92
Valve guide - intake (1st os)____6______$4.37______$26.22
Valve guide - exhaust (1st os)__6______$6.78______$40.68
Exhaust valve (6)_____________6______$35.52_____$213.12
Intake valve (6)_______________6______$11.41_____$68.46
Cam sprocket_________________1______$40.71_____$40.71
Head gasket set_______________1______$69.55_____$69.55
Chain tensioner________________1______$48.51_____$48.51
Timing chain__________________1______$92.70_____$92.70
Chain guide __________________1______$47.85_____$47.85
Upper chain guide _____________1______$4.43 ______$4.43
Lower chain guide _____________1______$3.78______$3.78
Cylinder head bolts (13) 10x102_13______$2.65______$34.45
Cylinder head bolts (7) 10x115___7______$3.06______$21.42
Cylinder head bolts (6) 10x80____6 _____$2.54______$15.24
Sub-Total_____________________________________$705.38

It's not what I actually spent. I put this together to estimate the cost only.
My cam sprocket was fine and I didn't replace any valves or guides. The machine shop was able to reuse all of them and the guides hardly ever wear enough to need replacing.

thats about what I spent on a 617 without having the head rebuilt.. and its a far cheaper/ simpler engine to work on.

I don't think anyone has even mentioned other stuff like a vacuum pump, belt/tensioner assembly, etc... It gets expensive.

Initially, I spent about $600 on parts, but ended up spending another 1K on "while you're in theres"

Lets assume B.C. 's number is high... what do you think you could have squeaked by with.... as a budget?

...without being an OCD worrywart that, more or less, wants a new factory engine from Stuttgart?

Here's the totals for both the block and head. It was about $2100 to do the whole engine, I had hoped any way. I had to buy new connecting rods for an additional $600. Plus I got the wrong main bearing set and had to but another.

Block
Piston Set (87.50mm) $1,000.00
Piston sleeves $114.00
Rod bearing set $157.18
Connecting rod bolts (12) $32.40
Front crank seal $14.46
Main bearing set (1st os) $66.76
Thrust bearing shim kit $13.72
Lower gasket set $63.77
Oil pump $244.06
Oil pump chain $18.37
Oil pump chain rail $3.67
Rear crank seal $8.54
Sub-Total $1,736.93

Head
Valve stem seal kit $14.92
Head gasket set $69.55
Chain tensioner $48.51
Timing chain $92.70
Chain guide $47.85
Upper chain guide $4.43
Lower chain guide $3.78
Cylinder head bolts (13) 10x102 $34.45
Cylinder head bolts (7) 10x115 $21.42
Cylinder head bolts (6) 10x80 $15.24
Sub-Total $352.85

Really? Unless the 400k mile car is pristine, and it probably isn't with 400k, it's not worth the $3k plus to freshen the engine completely, plus other items (water pump, vacuum pump, alternator, transmission, mounts, flex-joints, radiator, ... you'll never run out of "while I'm in there" options). A 400k mile car in good shape is worth fixing, but it's tired and the first time it gets dented it's totalled regardless of the money put into the driveline.

Fix what's broken, the next thing to break will be the thing you didn't replace because you had to draw a line somewhere, regardless of what you've spent. I pretty much keep a spare 124 in my shop in pieces to keep Murphy's Law from presidiing over my cars.

You can squeak by with about $500. if the head is intact and you do nothing to the valves and the guides. But, this basically puts a worn engine back together as it was, and the capability and reliability of such an engine won't be present.

It's not about being an OCD worrywart...........it's about getting some value for all the labor that you invested. If you're labor is free and time is unlimited, and reliability is not an important criterion (all the exact opposite of my personal situation), then go with the cheap approach if the head is not cracked. However, the odds of that are slim to none.

It's a crap-shoot.

I've removed the head from two 250k mile 603s, one perfect, the other had no leaks but visible cracking on one cylinder.

The #14 casting was not strong enough to take the pressures and temperatures at the combustion chamber to water jacket wall. It's my belief that the cooling system maintenance is one factor, full-throttle events with the higher pressure and temperature is another.

Well maintained and driven lightly it might be fine. For those of us with a heavy foot, ... a #17 or later is the only cure.

Metric would have been just as good and easier (a lot more money for the head work) but I think the only stuff I had left over was a banana rail. I probably could have saved a little by greasing and re-using the tensioner pivot arm, but thats only about $60 total. Keep in mind I completely rebuilt the fuel system from delivery valves to injectors and the other direction to the hard lines. I haven't even done the math on those expenses.

Parts - $600
Head work - $600
Injector work - $400
Parts after the fact including fuel system - $600

I agree with you. My labor was free and I wanted the "life experience" (don't ask me where I came up with that one) Overall though, I got attached to the car and the body is straight, the suspension is passable, and the interior is good. The work has already paid for itself in reimbursed mileage from my job. I just had to exchange 5 months of misery for it. None of it would have happened on a #14 head though. I doubt that I would have done any of it on a heavier chassis, unless the rest of the car was dead mint (restoration project). The 201 is light and driveable, economical, and looks a lot better than a Toyota :). The math works for this car.

Did you have the block machined? I imagine with the new sleeves and pistons you'd need the bores machined a bit, can't be cheap.

To be honest, after seeing the factory crosshatching in the cyl walls combined w/good compression cyl/block work was unnecessary. That'll be next head gasket.

I find myself agreeing with saquatchgeoff more and more. I realize my car is quite old, very old in fact, and I realize my money may be better spent looking for a new car or possibly swappable engine. However I am extremely attached to my car, we are truly family:). I really don't mind the labor. I enjoy the work and I especially enjoy knowing I kept such a beautiful car on the road. The bodies near mint, the suspensions completely rebuilt, the interiors great, and I've replaced/rebuilt half the car already, why not continue:rolleyes: I will however begin the hunt for a 17 or 22 head. I checked my parts car, sadly it's a 14 as well. I'll be pulling that head first and getting it checked out as a possible backup in case I can't find a better head or use my current head.

Fool.
 

Maybe I am one, who's, ultimately, to say? I just replaced the head gasket on a 603, 14 head, with at least 375k mi on the clock. I only did the gasket, head bolts, water pump, glow plugs, and thermostat.

There is definitely a lip in the cylinder bores, and the cross-hatching is long gone.

As long as you don't adhere TOO strictly to the procedure outlined by MB (don't take the turbo off, don't pull the radiator) you can have the head off the car in a day, EASY! Having done it, now, I think I could have it off and back on again in a long day.

If the head is cracked, you'll be able to see it. Mine wasn't. Am I looking for a spare? Yeah. Not scouring junkyards or anything, but I'm keeping my eyes open.

I have a spare 617 in my shop, another torn down to the crank ready to go to the machine shop, plus two more-or-less complete rebuildable core engines. Eventually, maybe I'll have similar inventories of 603's. Maybe not.

My point? I think I have one. Just fix the oil leak and drive it til it dies, man. Have another engine - one with fewer miles - ready to go in when this one quits.

Cheers!

Jay.