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  #76  
Old 02-02-2010, 12:11 AM
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That looks very suspicious to me. Was the knock an unoiled vacuum pump?
For some reason I thought I had linked on this thread, the long thread of the guy with the 116 with the failed timing device. It doesn't look like I did. I must have linked it to another thread recently. I'll try to find it. It has pictures of the bolt I think.

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1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13
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  #77  
Old 02-02-2010, 12:16 AM
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Didnt you say you ran the motor without the vac pump & still had the knock?
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1967 230-6 auto parts car. rust bucket.
1980 300D now parts car 800k miles
1984 300D 500k miles
1987 250td 160k miles English import
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  #78  
Old 02-02-2010, 12:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by layback40 View Post
Didnt you say you ran the motor without the vac pump & still had the knock?
Yeah, true... so much for that theory!
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  #79  
Old 02-02-2010, 12:19 AM
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I also found one more pin I got to remove for the timing device to come out:


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'82 300D (project)
'46 Willys (project)
"Nothing seems to be the way it should in this garage." -jt20
"Smarter than an engine, dumber than a hoodlatch..." -jt20
"Start jumping up and down to smoosh down those engine mounts" -DeliveryValve
"no" -kerry
"At this rate, you may have it done by winter" -layback40
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  #80  
Old 02-02-2010, 12:20 AM
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That makes me think the problem is still in the timing some place.
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Grumpy Old Diesel Owners Club group

I no longer question authority, I annoy authority. More effect, less effort....

1967 230-6 auto parts car. rust bucket.
1980 300D now parts car 800k miles
1984 300D 500k miles
1987 250td 160k miles English import
2001 jeep turbo diesel 130k miles
1998 jeep tdi ~ followed me home. Needs a turbo.
1968 Ford F750 truck. 6-354 diesel conversion.
Other toys ~J.D.,Cat & GM ~ mainly earth moving
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  #81  
Old 02-02-2010, 12:21 AM
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Here's the thread. I believe the bolt is pictured in the thread and I think I can see the hole in one picture but it's not easy to see.

300SD woes Injection Pump Timing device

If the oil was not flowing thru that bolt, it seems to me that the whole passageway for the oil would be blocked, hindering lubrication further back upstream to other components. (if there are any). I'd at least investigate what other things might have been lubricated by oil which eventually flowed out of that bolt. Seems like a dumb thing to do--replace a hollow bolt with a solid one.
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1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13
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  #82  
Old 02-02-2010, 12:40 AM
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Here's another thread. I think in this case, the bolt was solid not hollow:

Broke Injection pump Timing Device BOLT!!!
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1977 300d 70k--sold 08
1985 300TD 185k+
1984 307d 126k--sold 8/03
1985 409d 65k--sold 06
1984 300SD 315k--daughter's car
1979 300SD 122k--sold 2/11
1999 Fuso FG Expedition Camper
1993 GMC Sierra 6.5 TD 4x4
1982 Bluebird Wanderlodge CAT 3208--Sold 2/13
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  #83  
Old 02-02-2010, 12:55 AM
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Yeah in the service manual file 05-412, "removing the intermediate shaft" it says that for piston type pumps the bolt is not hollow. Which still does not explain how the pump is lubricated... I must have been using the same search terms as you did!!

Looks like in the thread you quoted theo had to take the pump off to get to the intermediate shaft... am I gonna have to go that route too?

What if its the pump that knocks?
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'82 300D (project)
'46 Willys (project)
"Nothing seems to be the way it should in this garage." -jt20
"Smarter than an engine, dumber than a hoodlatch..." -jt20
"Start jumping up and down to smoosh down those engine mounts" -DeliveryValve
"no" -kerry
"At this rate, you may have it done by winter" -layback40

Last edited by konstan; 02-02-2010 at 01:04 AM.
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  #84  
Old 02-02-2010, 01:13 AM
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On an unrelated note, found a thread where a guy with a knocking 603 motor used compressed air to "blow out the oil passages" which he accessed via an "allen head bolt" somewhere in the back of the engine. Does a 617 have something like that?
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'82 300D (project)
'46 Willys (project)
"Nothing seems to be the way it should in this garage." -jt20
"Smarter than an engine, dumber than a hoodlatch..." -jt20
"Start jumping up and down to smoosh down those engine mounts" -DeliveryValve
"no" -kerry
"At this rate, you may have it done by winter" -layback40

Last edited by konstan; 02-02-2010 at 01:52 AM.
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  #85  
Old 02-02-2010, 02:53 AM
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hey, guess what? --I'm bored again. Stick around and I'll get through reading the updates.
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  #86  
Old 02-02-2010, 02:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by konstan View Post
I have the following to report today:

1. Removed the glow plugs. Engine rotates with the same effort, no "hard" spots and no strange sounds.
the first thing that comes to mind is : did you rotate backwards for a few degrees to listen for 'play'?

the knocking could be a loose bearing or wrist pin bushing, if you rotate foward then backwards swiftly, you may recreate the 'knock'
Quote:
2. And this one is kind of interesting. I noticed that the bolt that holds the timing device in place is just a regular bolt, not the hollow bolt that the service manual calls for. This explains why, when I ran the motor without the vacuum pump, there wasn't oil all over. In fact, when I took the vacuum pump off, there was hardly any oil in it.

Here is what the service manual says about the bolt:
If you look at theo's thread, you will see that his is solid also, I have yet (after removing 5 timers) to come across a hollow bolt. I cannot explain why the FSM suggests that.
Quote:



I am no expert, but the bolt thing looks suspicious... what do the OM617 experts say? Any one got pics of what kind of bolt they have behind the vac pump?
that does look quite clean....
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  #87  
Old 02-02-2010, 03:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by konstan View Post
I also found one more pin I got to remove for the timing device to come out:


thass what I'm talkim' 'bout...

if you're using sockets and washers, be vewwy, vewwy choosey.
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  #88  
Old 02-02-2010, 03:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by konstan View Post
Yeah in the service manual file 05-412, "removing the intermediate shaft" it says that for piston type pumps the bolt is not hollow. Which still does not explain how the pump is lubricated... I must have been using the same search terms as you did!!

Looks like in the thread you quoted theo had to take the pump off to get to the intermediate shaft... am I gonna have to go that route too?

What if its the pump that knocks?
the injection pump, itself, will not cause the kind of knock you are concerned with... unless it is severely worn and causing bad combustion

the vacuum pump is lubricated by holes in the immediate shaft that oil the timer (search member: 'Beagle') and all the oil flying off the chain etc.. don't worry about that.
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  #89  
Old 02-02-2010, 03:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by konstan View Post
On an unrelated note, found a thread where a guy with a knocking 603 motor used compressed air to "blow out the oil passages" which he accessed via an "allen head bolt" somewhere in the back of the engine. Does a 617 have something like that?

there is a bolt on the front of the engine which acts as a cover for another bolt that is a seal for the main oil gallery from the oil pump. You will find it hidden beneath the crankshaft timing marker.

blowing air into this will do nothing.
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  #90  
Old 02-02-2010, 10:39 AM
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While I am waiting for the timing chain support plate to show up, I think I am gonna start preparing for the head removal.

Anything else you fellas would like to put on my to-do list for tonight? Mercedes repair-wise, that is?

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'82 300D (project)
'46 Willys (project)
"Nothing seems to be the way it should in this garage." -jt20
"Smarter than an engine, dumber than a hoodlatch..." -jt20
"Start jumping up and down to smoosh down those engine mounts" -DeliveryValve
"no" -kerry
"At this rate, you may have it done by winter" -layback40
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