Aluminum flakes in oil. What's about to blow? - Page 3 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

layback40 · #31 02-23-2010, 12:12 AM

X2 with Roy,
There is something strange going on in the motor.

Correct me if I am wrong, isnt the pickup/base of the oil pump alloy?

Flakes of alloy are a worry, its not like the normal 'ware mud' alloy you find in the bottom of the sump of an old motor.

Have you got one of these flakes, placed it on a hard surface & pressed it with a scribe to make sure its typical soft alloy?

Does any one know what the mesh size is on the oil pick up strainer? Are the flakes small enough to have got through the pick up strainer? I thought the mesh would not let anything that big through.

Do you still have the old oil? Does it have any flakes in it? If the flakes had come from other parts of the motor, then you would suspect that there may be some larger ones that didnt get through the strainer still in the old oil.

Just a few thoughts

leathermang · #32 02-23-2010, 07:44 AM

I agree something strange is happening and it needs to be found...
I do not think an oil analysis will help since I do not know of anyone who could say ' ah, that molecular structure aluminum looking slice came from __________ location in the engine."
I am still of the opinion that a three thousand mile oil change done hot is good economics not just for our engines but for the world. Keeping these old cars going saves a huge amount of energy compared to making some new car and trashing our beautiful works of art. The down side to trying to lengthen oil usage is hard to figure in terms of when the extra wear might start occurring .... and the cost of rebuilding these engines is high... and that assumes we can find someone to do it correctly in the first place...
I do not know where the alloy might be removed from in the form of slivers... perhaps WHunter can direct the inspection of the removed vacuum pump so that it can be ruled out before reinstallation.
Technically ' babbit ' and ' inserts' .. while doing the same job at the same place are two different things... our new engines have thin inserts which are placed on the rod cap and body next to the crank and that is why they are called ' inserts'.. where the babbit must be heated and poured into those cavities. A skill hard to find these days.
I have not taken a MB oil pump apart...but have done so with many other cars...and there is the possibility some contact surface in there is aluminum ... and the movement could produce slivers if out of tolerance. So that seems like a safe thing to check at this time if the vacuum pump gets ruled out.
Is the oil filtered before or after the oil pump on your engine ?

Hatterasguy · #33 02-23-2010, 08:29 AM

Pull the valve cover and take a look. The camshaft bearing caps on these motors are aluminum and they don't have any bearing material per say between them and the cam. At least non that I could see. Granted I'm familer with the 603 but the 601 is probably just about the same motor with two cylinders chopped off.

Problem with an old motor is crap like this could happen. It could mean nothing an the motor will run another 100k, or it could blow up tomarrow.

vwnut84 · #34 02-23-2010, 08:34 AM

Honestly the flakes are so small, I cant even tell if anything is marking it when I try to see how soft it is. All I know is that it's non metallic and silver in color, and small. I don't have the old oil at hand, so I can't strain it to check for more silvery bits.

Could it be at all possible that I just went too long on a thin oil? Even still, something is producing the metal. Maybe I should change the oil again now with 15-40, cut open the filter, and strain the oil and see what I've got, maybe I'll get lucky.

Either way, I think I'm going to stop driving it this week, just gotta get some time to get to the DMV.

I did always want a bit more power for this slug, maybe it's time for a transplant......

Hatterasguy · #35 02-23-2010, 08:39 AM

No 5k miles isn't long for a 6XX series, diesel.

Run the current oil 3k miles and send a sample of the oil out to the lab, maybe what you saw was something else. They will flag it for metal if their is a serious problem.

As long as it sounds decent and has good oil pressure its probably not going to blow up.

vwnut84 · #36 02-23-2010, 08:55 AM

Thats just the thing, the engine is as quiet as a mouse with good oil pressure.

AHHHH WHY did I have to cut open the filter!!??? Sometimes it sucks being so curious, instead of worrying myself sick over this, I could just be motoring along happy as I was. (at least untill it blew up? hahaha)

Thanks for all the brainstorming again guys!

mplafleur · #37 02-23-2010, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whunter

Thank you for the kind words.

IMO:
There are many members who should not be ignored when they answer questions.

This is my short list (please don't feel slighted if your name is missing).

300EVIL
Ashman
Brian Carlton
ctaylor738
Hatterasguy
iwrock
JimSmith
jmk
* Luke@tirerack Wheels & Tires
* M.B.DOC
MikeTangas
Pete Geither
rg2098
* stevebfl
Tomguy
Webmaster
whunter
Zeus

I've got a shorter list:

leathermang
sixto
gsxr
mbdoc
jimsmith
stevebfl
barry1234

There are surely a few more, but this is what immediately pops into mind. I'm terrible at remembering names and I'm sure I spelled a couple of these wrong.

vstech · #38 02-23-2010, 09:17 AM

rut rogh shaggy, now we have two experts with conflicting opinions... what to do what to do...

when you pulled the vacuum pump, you "looked at it and it looked good" any chance you took some pictures of the pump? pics of the bearing surfaces, and the bearing cages may show something to us, that you missed.
aside from that, I'd still pull the valve cover, and pull the lower pan and look it over for debris along with the pump screen for collections of gunk.
on an 85 617 I got, the pump screen had many metal flakes stuck in the screen... bad rod bearing... you don't wanna ruin a crank, or shatter a cam. pull the covers and inspect them.

JB3 · #39 02-23-2010, 09:18 AM

you may be going crazy over nothing. Are you absolutely sure the flakes are not something from the filter itself? even the filter manufacturing process? Ive found amazing stuff inside a filter in the past that was simply built into the filter housing by accident. IE: part of a rubber glove.

The only thing you have to indicate anything is this minute flake of unknown material, otherwise from what you've written, the engine runs and drives and is normal at all times.

The only thing I would do is pull the oil pan and see if theres more debris. If not, then you are probably worrying about nothing.

leathermang · #40 02-23-2010, 09:18 AM

Finally I got on someone's list !!! I thought I should be included because I am 1. old, 2. have read the FSM's... and am willing to take on certain ' junk science' advocates....LOL

JimSmith · #41 02-23-2010, 09:40 AM

First, I am unfamiliar with this engine in particular, however, there is a family resemblance to the 2.3 gas, even if it is a vague resemblance. I would pull the valve cover and check timing, and visually examine things in there. I would also try to get the oil out of pockets where it has settled and filled small depressions. Like the heads of socket head cap screws, looking for more evidence of your problem. When the chain wears, you can get some unwanted movement of the chain, and nearly everything around it is either non-metallic (guides and tensioner surfaces) or aluminum (all of the front cover if there is one on this engine, the head, and the valve cover). If the chain is beginning to eat some parts away, it won't be long until the problem grows into a bigger job. Unfortunately if this engine is like the 2.3 gas, getting in and around the chain box is a chore.

If you find nothing in the little puddles and socket head capscrew heads you might not have a real issue. If the flakes were in the oil though, I would expect you do have an issue. Either wear or contamination of some kind (seals on oil containers have a foil bonded to plastic....)

Jim

vwnut84 · #42 02-23-2010, 09:47 AM

I did not take any pictures of the pump, but I looked over the ball bearing, the lobe that the bearing rides on, surfaces where the springs seat, and any other moving parts I could see. All looked ok and in order with no signs of wear. I had a co-worker look it over as well, he couldn't find anything either.

I'm still going to pull the valve over to check the caps, hopefully tonight.

Then there is the point that I may be worrying over a filter manufacturing issue.

pimpernell · #43 02-23-2010, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vwnut84

I did not take any pictures of the pump, but I looked over the ball bearing, the lobe that the bearing rides on, surfaces where the springs seat, and any other moving parts I could see. All looked ok and in order with no signs of wear. I had a co-worker look it over as well, he couldn't find anything either.

I'm still going to pull the valve over to check the caps, hopefully tonight.

Then there is the point that I may be worrying over a filter manufacturing issue.

If you want to further put your mind at rest, I would send an oil sample out to one of the labs such as Blackstone. You take the sample while doing an oil change, send it off with all the info about your car, and the report comes back with a complete listing of the metal elements found in the oil, along with any liquid impurities such as anti freeze, water etc.. Hope this helps ....

cmbdiesel · #44 02-23-2010, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mplafleur

I've got a shorter list:

leathermang
sixto
gsxr
mbdoc
jimsmith
stevebfl
barry1234

There are surely a few more, but this is what immediately pops into mind. I'm terrible at remembering names and I'm sure I spelled a couple of these wrong.

tangofox007

Hatterasguy · #45 02-23-2010, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vwnut84

Then there is the point that I may be worrying over a filter manufacturing issue.

Correct, at this point you have incomplete information.

Point 1:
You found some suspected metal flakes in the filter. Source is unknown.

Point 2:
The engine runs fine with strong oil pressure, and no performance issues.

At this point if it were my car I wouldn't worry about it. I would poke around like you are doing and if I saw nothing continue to run it. Than I would on the next oil change send a sample out to Blackstone and see what they come up with. If they flag it for metal you have an issue, if not your worrying over nothing.