Aluminum flakes in oil. What's about to blow? - Page 4 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

mplafleur · #46 02-23-2010, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leathermang

Finally I got on someone's list !!! I thought I should be included because I am 1. old, 2. have read the FSM's... and am willing to take on certain ' junk science' advocates....LOL

But I can't believe I forgot Larry Bible!

Sorry Larry.

mplafleur · #47 02-23-2010, 09:42 PM

I've seen a couple of front timing covers that have had material shaved away by a chain.

The material you have found is significant in size. Material is being taken away in large amounts, so something is is rubbing where it shouldn't. A bearing, or a cover. If it's the cover, then the look to the chain tensioner. The chain should take up any normal stretch you have, but perhaps it isn't now.

If it's a bearing, if you wait too long, you'll have to repair the crankshaft in addition to just new bearing shells.

barry123400 · #48 02-24-2010, 12:47 AM

We local guys sat down and discussed many years ago about changing to synthetic with a well broken in engine. Of course no absolute conclusions where reached.

The one that tended to surface over and over was new wear patterns may have to occur. These old diesel engines almost demand the viscocity. Call it a result of the engineering of the times. Most modern descriptions of synthetic products go something like protection like 40 weight dino oils. By the way 5-40 synthetic or dino oil we consider too light anyways for these engines unless constantly below freezing all the time in operation. May still be too thin depending on existing wear in the engine. I would expect a possibility of what you have seen at the extreme end of things.

I have no proof but they are describing a different senario in some ways. You actually need the forty weight or something close. Without it parts may contact a little without it initially. This might be considered establishing a new wear pattern but destructive as actual metal to metal contact is occuring. Your metal particles are too large to consider it a small change in the wear patterns.

To decide as there may be no way to establish exactly what has occured without virtually an autopsy. Assume the current new filter by now has picked up any leftover particles.

You are now running the oil that the engine was using long term again. Pull the filter and open it up for inspection. If quantity of contamination is small or much reduced replace the filter and do another filter inspection at the next oil change period. Or when you want to. I almost feel there is a chance the problem may be gone.

Certainly inspect anything easy to do as well. I just feel you might never find anything. Could be wrong though. The only other choice is to pull and knock the engine apart. Again it might just have been an issue with thinner oil than the well worn in engine will tolerate.

As much as I like the majority of reports about the easier starting etc of synthetics. I cannot convince myself to switch. I know it sounds like being stuck in a rut as well. I really try to keep an open mind.

You could also ask the oil check people to determine if the particles are aluminium or bearing face material. That should be simple for them to determine. If bearing facing material you then have some thinking to do even if no longer showing up in the filter.

You know you will have taken some damage. If aluminium is what they report I would not get too concerned as long as the engine is not generating any more of it. If it is generating more of either substance it in theory should increase the amount on an equal milage basis.

Wear tends to accelerate once started. I would tend to conduct the test carefully being aware something serious could result. There is just too much possibility of the synthetic oil causing the issue.. If you had not changed oil types I would have the particles identified still and pull the engine right away.

vwnut84 · #49 02-24-2010, 08:54 AM

Barry thanks for that post.

I've also heard the argument of why not to switch to a synthetic at a high mileage point, but I never had any problems in the past, so I figured it'd be ok now too. The main thing I wanted to achieve with switching to synthetic was A) aid in cold starts B) fuel economy C) longer change intervals.

Now that it's no longer sub zero out, at the end of this week I'll do another oil change with some regular 15-40 rotella and open the current filter up to see if there is any more metal in there. Or would it be wise to keep the synthetic in there now, as the engine may have already developed a new wear pattern?

I do need to do a valve cover gasket anyway, so I will still be pulling a couple of bearing caps just so I have a visual piece of mind for the head at least.

As for the timing chain hitting the cover, I figured I would have heard that? Right now the chain sounds nice and quiet, under all conditions (rev accel and decel and steady rpms).

layback40 · #50 02-24-2010, 09:36 AM

If you are going to do an oil change, take the sump pan off & have a look at what is in the bottom. At the mileage that yours has done there may be some very fine oily alloy mud, but there should be no big bits like you found. If its clear, then at worst, the base of the oil pump picked up a little. You will have piece of mind.

leathermang · #51 02-24-2010, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barry123400

..... You actually need the forty weight or something close. ......

Small gas engine manufacturers ...like lawn mower engines.... have been very specific about requiring ' Straight 30 wt' oil .... this is because the additives which give oil the wider range of temperature viscosity are ADDITIVES...not oil... and have a shorter life than the oil.

On old engine where the bearings are assumed to have some wear.. like over 100K miles.... I have always used higher than 30 wt...
On an old Diesel I use straight 40wt Dello 400 and change hot at 3000 miles.

The first half of the 1900's many engines used NON detergent oil There were warnings about changing to Detergent oil because it would clean out oil passages and if care was not taken could totally clog an oil filter and stop flow to the bearings.

In contemplating changing to a Synthetic that would be my fear... that it would clean out decades of accumulated oil sludge in the oil passages...

I am not saying do it or not... just warning that a close watch and/or several quick changes of the filter should be included in the process.

vstech · #52 02-24-2010, 10:25 AM

AAAHHHHHHH!!!!
you just changed to synthetic for the first time 5500 miles ago?
this changes things.
if this is true, then the shavings could be from a low oil or late change hundreds of thousands of miles ago. and the synthetic oil just cleaned off some sludge and sent it through your filter... always change filters three times as often when you go from old unknown age, or OCI dino oil to synthetic. it's gonna clean a lot of stuff...

rrgrassi · #53 02-24-2010, 10:45 AM

I switched from Rotella 15w-40 to the Rotella "Synthetic" last year and have not noticed and metal flakes. My car now has 274,500 miles on it.

vstech · #54 02-24-2010, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rrgrassi

I switched from Rotella 15w-40 to the Rotella "Synthetic" last year and have not noticed and metal flakes. My car now has 274,500 miles on it.

I wasn't saying switching to synthetic would cause metal flakes, I was saying that the flakes could have been in the sludge for decades and just now surfaced from the cleaning action of the synthetic.
the flakes could have been sitting there from a PO that didn't change the oil or ran it out of oil... or both.

rrgrassi · #55 02-24-2010, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vstech

I wasn't saying switching to synthetic would cause metal flakes, I was saying that the flakes could have been in the sludge for decades and just now surfaced from the cleaning action of the synthetic.
the flakes could have been sitting there from a PO that didn't change the oil or ran it out of oil... or both.

I agree with you. Or the PO put a thicker oil in it to cover something up before the sale...

vwnut84 · #56 02-24-2010, 11:18 AM

Car was sitting for about 4 years prior to me buying it, and had an old quart of Castrol Diesel 15-40 in the trunk, that and it was owned by a nice old lady so i don't suspect a coverup. Lack of an oil change or running it low is another possibility (the PO not me)

rrgrassi · #57 02-24-2010, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vwnut84

Car was sitting for about 4 years prior to me buying it, and had an old quart of Castrol Diesel 15-40 in the trunk, that and it was owned by a nice old lady so i don't suspect a coverup. Lack of an oil change or running it low is another possibility (the PO not me)

If it sat for four years, I bet some acids formed and ate away some of the bearing surfaces. Was the oil changed before it sat up?

leathermang · #58 02-24-2010, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rrgrassi

If it sat for four years, I bet some acids formed and ate away some of the bearing surafces. Was the oil changed before it sat up?

But that by itself would not produce ' slivers'.....

rrgrassi · #59 02-24-2010, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leathermang

But that by itself would not produce ' slivers'.....

True, but running the engine after a long rest like that could, since the bearing surfaces could be compromised.

vwnut84 · #60 02-24-2010, 12:24 PM

Nope, I ran the car on the oil it had for about...200 miles tops, maybe less, I don't remember if I changed it on the lift at home or at work. The car was not completely dormant for those four years, it had been started and moved around the driveway when needed.