Yes, OEM replacement which supports my comments. Thank you.


Yes, errr... "Attention: make sure you have a clean filter." (??)

In your hurry to be condescending to me a while back you simply miscalculated a bit. Live and learn, eh?

I am sorry it got a bit out of hand. There is a lot of technology that people simply do not recognize, particularly, it seems, with respect to oil control.


Just so readers know that I don't make this up as I go along, Jeff, here is the Mercedes patent on the scrapers in the pan. Ford was using this tech back in the 1960s -- I know because I make devices that work in harmony with the 427 pans.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
United States Patent 3,688,871
September 5, 1972

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OIL PAN FOR A MULTI-CYLINDER RECIPROCATING PISTON INTERNAL COMBUSTION ENGINE


Abstract
An oil pan for a multi-cylinder reciprocating piston internal combustion engine which includes a bottom part disposed near the drive mechanism of the engine and a relatively deep part for the oil sump at one end and in which the bottom part is provided with ribs guiding the lubricating oil into the oil sump.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Inventors: Rudolf Krestan (Stuttgart-Rotenberg, Federal Republic of), DE (N/A), Kurt Kenngott (Stuttgart-Feuerbach, Federal Republic of), DE (N/A)
Assignee: Daimler-Benz Aktiengesellschaft, Stuttgart, Federal (

Appl. No.: 05/052,831
Filed: July 7, 1970

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Foreign Application Priority Data

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Jul 18, 1970 [DE] 19 36 572.1


Current U.S. Class: 184/6.5 ; 184/106
Current International Class: F01M 11/00 (20060101); F01M 11/06 (20060101); F01m 011/00 ()
Field of Search: 184/6.2,6.5,6.13,106 123/198E



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

References Cited [Referenced By]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

U.S. Patent Documents

3189126 June 1965 May
3101129 August 1963 Hulten
2577188 December 1951 Hall


Foreign Patent Documents

1102169 May., 1955 FR
675502 Jul., 1952 GB3

Primary Examiner: Manuel A. Antonakas
Attorney, Agent or Firm: Craig & Antonelli

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Claims

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


What we claim is:

1. An oil pan for accommodating oil for an engine, comprising: a deep part forming an oil sump, a relatively shallow part communicating with said sump, and rib means projecting upwardly from the bottom of said shallow part for guiding the lubricating oil into the sump, said rib means including recesses along parts of the upper portions thereof for accommodating other engine structure, characterized in that said rib means includes several first rib structures provided on one side of the bottom of the shallow part, said first rib structures extending from a lateral boundary of the shallow part approximately up to the center of the shallow part, portions of said rib structures adjacent the lateral boundary being spaced farther from the oil sump than portions of said rib structures adjacent the center of the shallow part.

2. An oil pan according to claim 1, characterized in that all of said rib structures are substantially parallel to one another.

3. An oil pan according to claim 2, characterized in that said parallel first rib structures are of substantially arcuate shape.

4. An oil pan according to claim 3, characterized in that at least one second rib structure is arranged on the opposite side of the shallow part from the first rib structures, said second rib structure extending nearly over the entire length of said shallow part, said second rib structure being spaced within the area of the part of the oil pan accommodating the oil sump, a greater distance from a lateral boundary of the shallow part than at the other end.

5. An oil pan according to claim 4, characterized in that several rib means are arranged on the opposite side of the shallow part which extend at an inclination to the longitudinal axis of the oil pan.

6. An oil pan and engine arrangement for accommodating lubricating oil, comprising an engine, a deep part of an oil pan forming an oil sump, a relatively shallow part of said oil pan communicating with said sump, said shallow part being disposed near a drive mechanism of the engine such that rotating drive mechanism parts of said drive mechanism and drive mechanism bearings of said drive mechanism extend downwardly into said shallow part, and rib means projecting upwardly from the bottom of said shallow part for guiding the lubricating oil into the sump, said rib means including means for permitting the downward extension of said drive mechanism parts and said drive mechanism bearings below the upper portions of said rib means.

7. An arrangement according to claim 6, wherein said last mentioned means includes a longitudinally extending open space between ribs of the rib means.

8. An arrangement according to claim 6, wherein said last mentioned means includes recess means in upper portions of said rib means.

9. An arrangement according to claim 6, characterized in that said rib means includes several first rib structures provided on one side of the bottom of the shallow part, the movement of the rotating drive mechanism parts being directed toward said one side, said first rib structures extending from a lateral boundary of the shallow part approximately up to the center of the shallow part, portions of said rib structures adjacent the lateral boundary being spaced farther from the oil sump than portions of said rib structures adjacent the center of the shallow part.

10. An arrangement according to claim 9, characterized in that all of said first rib structures are substantially parallel to one another.

11. An arrangement according to claim 10, characterized in that said parallel rib means are of substantially arcuate shape.

12. An arrangement according to claim 9, characterized in that at least one second rib structure is arranged on the opposite side of the shallow part from the first rib structures, said second rib structure extending nearly over the entire length of said shallow part, said second rib structure being spaced within the area of the part of the oil pan accommodating the oil sump, a greater distance from a lateral boundary of the shallow part than at the other end.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Description

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


The present invention relates to an oil pan of a multi-cylinder reciprocating piston internal combustion engine which includes a bottom part disposed near the power plant of the internal combustion engine and a relatively deep part for the oil sump at one end.

In line with the general aim to reduce the structural height of motor vehicles, especially the structural height of the vehicle front section accommodating the driving internal combustion engine, one has gone over to keep small the over-all constructive height of the internal combustion engine, inter alia, also in that the distance of the bottom part of the oil pan relative to the rotating parts of the motor has been decreased. It is disadvantageous in this construction that the rotating motor parts immerge constantly into the oil flowing off from the bottom part of the oil pan into the oil sump. As a result thereof, larger quantities of oil are torn along in the upward direction and the oil drainage into the sump is delayed. An oil vortex or eddy forms in the bottom part of the oil pan which moves only slowly in the discharge direction. The consequence thereof is an increased drag power of the internal combustion engine, the oil temperature rises, and the oil quantity in the oil sump is reduced. A reduction of the oil quantity in the oil sump may lead to bearing damages if the oil pump, for example, during a curve drive, draws in air.

The present invention is therefore concerned with the task to eliminate the aforementioned disadvantages. The underlying problems are solved according to the present invention in that ribs conducting the lubricating oil into the oil sump are arranged in the bottom part of the oil pan.

The rotating oil vortex or eddy is intersected by the arrangement of the ribs in the bottom part. The oil can flow off more rapidly in the direction toward the oil sump. As a result thereof, only smaller oil quantities can be taken along by the rotating drive mechanism parts. As a consequence thereof, a gain in effective power is achieved. The oil temperature decreases. The oil becomes calm more rapidly and frees itself more rapidly of air particles. Additionally, the quietness of the running of the internal combustion engine increases. Since the oil level in the oil sump is improved, the oil sump does not need to be designed particularly deep which is advantageous as regards the road clearance of the vehicle. The manufacture of the oil pan with ribs poses no problems. It can be realized, as usual, of die-cast metal, for instance, by pressure-casting.

...

So again, ... this patent relates somehow to the OP question regarding oil level slightly over full in an OM616?

And again, your limited experience with low oil in your OM603.962 relates how to the OP question regarding an OM616?

Again, you're obviously more interested in winning an argument, ... than posting useful information. A patent on an oil pan? Really? Since your argument has focused on the symantics of "oil scraper", I don't see the term in the above referenced patent, ... but I'm sure you have an argument for that also.

I should listen to my Father's advice regarding arguments with people who don't care whether their argument is useful, solicited, or pertinent to the original subject: "Never wrestle with a pig, you both get dirty and the pig likes it.".

__________________

Gone to the dark side

- Jeff

Jeff, next time simply don't assume so much. Every once in a while you'll run into someone who can see through blustering and BS. I am an expert in oil control -- you're not.

You're not aware of oil control technology that Mercedes has been using generally for 40 years. It has been around a lot longer than that in the industry. The danger from overfilling the sump is windage related. I am sorry you don't see that.

I am sure you know a lot more than me about a great many things -- this is not one of them.

Move on.

... and this relates to the OP how?

So you've chosen to again change the argument. Big surprise.

Okay, as if this is going to be answered honestly, and has anything to do with the OP, what exactly are your credentials as "an expert in oil control"? Your decision to duck my comment about you not being an Engineer is what makes me waste my time asking.

>>edit / addendum:

Feel free to ramble on, you've made my point several times, regardless of how you see it. I'm moving on to useful threads.

__________________

Gone to the dark side

- Jeff

Well, I agree with Kevin, but that's just from reading the manual for every engine that I have owned. They all say to not run them with the oil above the max.

So I stick with my original advice to the OP: extract it through the dipstick tube.

Hey Jeff & Kevin,
You both sound like very passionate guys when it comes to your diesels!!
Please dont run the risk of getting a 'slap on the wrist' for showing your strong beliefs. You both have very good points & maybe best we all take a deep breath and let this one go. The OP has already fixed the problem and maybe should have closed the thread.

__________________
Grumpy Old Diesel Owners Club group

I no longer question authority, I annoy authority. More effect, less effort....

1967 230-6 auto parts car. rust bucket.
1980 300D now parts car 800k miles
1984 300D 500k miles
1987 250td 160k miles English import
2001 jeep turbo diesel 130k miles
1998 jeep tdi ~ followed me home. Needs a turbo.
1968 Ford F750 truck. 6-354 diesel conversion.
Other toys ~J.D.,Cat & GM ~ mainly earth moving

I agree with this. I've typed about three responses over the last day or so at various times and just had to decide to delete them. it's not usually worth it.

__________________


~Michael S.~
Past cars:

1986 300SDL
1987 300SDL
1982 240D
1982 300SD


Current:

1987 300SDL

I will try to be brief -- I think there is some more information that could be helpful for people that are tempted to play around with oil levels, i.e. push the limits. This information centers on the unique dangers of diesels with wetsumps versus petrol engines with wetsumps. I'll start with petrol engines.

Often there are petrol versions of essentially the same lower block and rotating assembly, including the oil pan. In competition, racers will often add a "overfill" quart of oil to a stock sump to solve various types of oil related issues. I am NOT saying that I endorse this.

The OEMs actually do this manipulation as well and it is an indication that there is still a level of art in trying to balance complex conditions. In SAE papers 2004-01-2913 and 2007-01-4109, the authors from MIT examine the same Ford 3.0L DOHC V6. The original engineering work on this engine (2.5L version) was done by Porsche. One of the "signatures" of the Porsche engineering is the presence of a second occlusive windage tray (/baffle) that just covers the running level of oil in the sump. I have a core of this engine and took the time to measure the oil volumes and levels in the pan.

Ford specified an overfill for the stock engine, so that second tray was submerged thereby negating part of its original design. There was obviously a difference of opinion by experts from both companies. It bears recognizing, however, that Ford was helping to support this research -- there were oil related issues with the engine. One of the effects observed during the research (2004 paper, page 7) at rpm levels of 1500 to 2000 was the filling of the crankcase with foam. This is important.

Surface foam will not neccessarily damage a petrol or equivalent diesel engine via the lubrication circuit or via hydraulic lifter operation. These are complex areas in their own right. What is important to recognize is that a diesel engine can feed off of this foam (air/oil mix) if it passes through the crankcase ventilation system into the intake. You cannot always transfer experience from petrol engines directly over to diesels even in seemingly equivalent systems.

It is also worth noting that the foaming situation did not always occur with the engine. This might lead one to have extended empirical evidence to claim that nothing untoward will ever happen if you overfill. Note that this was technically an "overfill" by Porsche engineering but not by Ford engineering.

An OEM is going to be receiving feedback from millions of customers over decades. Some customers that play around with oil fill levels they will never hear from. The customers get away with it. They can then honestly post on forums that they believe nothing bad will happen, after all it never happened to them when they did it for years successfully. The OEM is going to hear about the situations where things didn't go so well and "who is going to pay for my blown engine," or far worse -- the unintended and uncontrolled acceleration of the engine in my car while driving.

Please, just keep this in mind.

If this is brief then I don't know what is long.

Some members here is so elitists and into an ivory tower that nothing and nothing will talk them out of it. Next time I will fill my cars with a springe, making sure I am not a milli-litre overfilled. I am impressed.

__________________
Not MBZ nor A/C trained professional but a die-hard DIY and green engineer. Use the info at your own peril. Picked up 2 Infractions because of disagreements. NOW reversed.

W124 Keyless remote, PM for details. http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/mercedes-used-parts-sale-wanted/334620-fs-w124-chasis-keyless-remote-%2450-shipped.html

1 X 2006 CDI
1 x 87 300SDL
1 x 87 300D
1 x 87 300TDT wagon
1 x 83 300D
1 x 84 190D ( 5 sp ) - All R134 converted + keyless entry.

A longer version would include the significant errors in analysis made in the papers and how you can use that info to derive the design of device that Mercedes patented 40 years ago. It all ties together.

Elitist and ivory tower? Look, I actually make these devices, myself, -- day in and day out. I suspect that I have dealt with a few thousand more practical applications of them than you.

Make sure you watch the meniscus -- really carefully, look at it level with your line of sight to avoid parallax error -- when you fill your engine from the burette. Maybe a youtube video is in order?

Kevin,

I understand you are a very experience engineer. Please give me a YES/NO answer. If I overfill any of my cars by 1/4" over the top mark. Would it cause irreversible harm to the engine. Make it super brief, just Y or N.

__________________
Not MBZ nor A/C trained professional but a die-hard DIY and green engineer. Use the info at your own peril. Picked up 2 Infractions because of disagreements. NOW reversed.

W124 Keyless remote, PM for details. http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/mercedes-used-parts-sale-wanted/334620-fs-w124-chasis-keyless-remote-%2450-shipped.html

1 X 2006 CDI
1 x 87 300SDL
1 x 87 300D
1 x 87 300TDT wagon
1 x 83 300D
1 x 84 190D ( 5 sp ) - All R134 converted + keyless entry.

I thought he was pretty clear. Overfilling can cause problems. Will it cause problems in every case - no. Might it cause problems in your case - perhaps. Does anyone care if YOU over fill YOUR crank case - No. Feel free to ignore qualified information. It is YOUR car.

__________________
85SD 240K & stopped counting painted, putting bac together. 84SD 180,000. sold to a neighbor and member here but I forget his handle. The 84 is much improved from when I had it. 85TD beginning to repair to DD status. Lots of stuff to do.

Hi, I understand you are very experienced in the Socratic method of argument. Please give me a YES/NO answer. Have you stopped robbing banks yet?

Edit: Thanks, Junkman.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Edit 2

I received a warning over this reply to ah-kay. I understand Brian's call on that: that he asked a simple question and I could choose to ignore it or answer it. -- That what I could not do was be overly condescending in my reply to him.

I respect Brian's decision but still feel my response to him was appropriate. I think I did answer his question and took a good deal of my time to do so. Then Junkman answered it yet a second time. Ah-kay simply did not like the answer. It is very clear that he understood it.

I do not think it is overly condescending to ah-kay to call him out on the use of a recognized, petty, sophomoric and condescending tactic of repeatedly demanding a simple yes or no answer to a question requiring a complex answer and that has been already answered multiple times.

Junkman and companay. I am looking for a Y/N answer and all I get is a thesis. This OP is so trivial and we have Doctoral dissertations. What a forum.

It is getting so stuffy here that I need a breath of fresh air.

__________________
Not MBZ nor A/C trained professional but a die-hard DIY and green engineer. Use the info at your own peril. Picked up 2 Infractions because of disagreements. NOW reversed.

W124 Keyless remote, PM for details. http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/mercedes-used-parts-sale-wanted/334620-fs-w124-chasis-keyless-remote-%2450-shipped.html

1 X 2006 CDI
1 x 87 300SDL
1 x 87 300D
1 x 87 300TDT wagon
1 x 83 300D
1 x 84 190D ( 5 sp ) - All R134 converted + keyless entry.