IP timing for dummies? - 617 engine
 

Ok, shop has replaced engine for me, and is now trying to get IP timing back. '85 300sd. I have searched threads and printed out several w/ drip method and one w/ removing #1 line and drying out w/paper towel. Car does start, but runs rough and smoking. (had to use 85 IP, not the 83 that was on the engine). ANYONE have SIMPLE check step by step instructions for mechanic that isn't too familiar w/ diesels? Need to get my car back on the road!

THX!

Use the drip method as listed in the shop manual. The bubble method is highly innaccurate, I did it on my 85 IP and it was 10degrees off!

If you were 10 degrees off you did something wrong, did you remove the check ball and spring from the pressure relief valve? The bubble method is quite accurate and a lot less messy:rolleyes:

Cant remove the ball and spring on the 85's now can you.....

Huh, I haven't tried on an 85. What I do is remove the entire valve and hook up another banjo and hose. you cant do that on an 85?

I was taught the bubble method by an old MB tech and long time shop owner down in Palo Alto CA who claimed its more "accurate than it needs too be" which is what the late Doktor Booth also claimed. I think both methods work fine, its just what your used to doing.

I believe the easiest of them all is to use the RVT port and the locking tool. Even without the locking tool you can set it with a mirror.

Ah yes, that would be nice. I know what you mean now, my 85s are non turbo with the "M" pumps.

I had allot of trouble getting the drip method to work, not the fault of the method, doh;)

Well turn the engine till the tang in the inspection port of the injection pump is centered viewing this with a mirror. Then have a look for the valve lobes pointing generally in an upward direction on the first two cam lobes.

If the lobes are pointing generally downward the pump is on the wrong cycle. The engine will run poorly and smoke this way. Now if the tang in the pump is generally centered and the lobes are generally upward and the crank pulley marks are right for the tang method you have other problems.

How to deal with the tang will be in the archives. It is fairly common to install the injection pump on the wrong cycle.

AFAIK All M pumps have the "tang".

For the Drip Method to work OK you need to keep the Fuel Supply pressure constant.
More pressure more drips; less pressure less drips.

One way to do this is to have someone else do the pumping on the Hand Primer.
To other ways are an Electric Fuel Pump (around $45) and a Gravity Feed set up (think of the old style IV setups you saw in the old Hosipatal movies).
Where I used to work back in the late 1970s whe had a Gravity Feed Setup that we used on a bunch of different Companies Fuel Injection Pumps.

This is a copy of a post I did a while ago, you dont need to remove the IP as I say in the post below, as your engine runs, just follow the setting procedure-

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Sounds like you made some progress!

well, at least you have the chain in and the cam timed with the crank now!

Best way forward,--Because we really dont know exactly Where the pump is at the moment, in relation to the crank and cam...

Pull out the I.P.

I happen to have done exactly this today--For another reason (Full-load adjustment) and can describe how it went...

Set the engine crank to 25 degrees BTDC, Both Valves of Nos. 1 pot closed, cam lobes at the top, meaning its on its compression/firing stroke.

Pull out the I.P. There are three nuts at the front and one at the back. You May need to remove the bracket on the cyl.block at the rear mount.

With the pump out, the coupling may have stayed in the engine or may be on the pump. This is a short internally splined tube. If its in the engine, Fine, If not slide it from the pump shaft.

Look around the splined sides of the drive and you'll see where there is a spline 'missing'--Its not, just used as a setting point.

Clean the flange at the base where the shaft disappears into pump of oil and crud.

You Should see at the approx 10 'O-Clock position, holding the pump with outlets uppermost, a small dimple in the ally casting..

.(This is where you MAY find a Difference. I have a Euro 'M' Type Pump 'Cause I'm in the U.K, and I'm assuming you have a US MW Pump, but I believe you Should have that dimple on your flange too)

It has been confirmed by U.S. Member, Stevo, that the 'MW-Type' Pump Does have the Dimple at the flange, Thanks.....

Now, you'll need to turn the pump shaft to align the gap in the splines to line up with that dimple...(It doesnt matter which direction you turn the shaft, as long as the gap aligns with the dimple when the pump is re-fitted, it'll be good...)

Now, Re-insert the pump after re-fitting the coupling tube, if it came out with the pump, and fit two front nuts loosly.

Set up the low-pressure plastic fuel-pipes and prime up pump, Leave off the steel injector-lines at this point.

Remove the del.valve from nos. 1 outlet and attach 'drip-tube'.

(A drip-tube can be easily made from an old injector-line, Bend and cut to shape of a 'U' and cut the pipe at an angle)

Pump Primer and alter pump position to achieve 1 drip per second from the drip-tube...

Top of Pump away from engine will increase the flow, towards engine will slow or stop the flow. The trick is, getting the position of the pump right when the nuts are tightened up! --Sometimes you may get it bang on straight away, other times you may have to re-position pump once or twice...

You'll Have to pump the Primer all the time when timing the 1 sec. drips. Once primed up, you dont need to pump it hard, easy slow strokes is fine...

(takes approx 1 sec. to say the words 'One Thousand'--as a rough guide)

When you're happy with the drip-rate, turn the engine two full turns in correct direction of rotation round and back to 25 degrees BTDC. Check Drip-rate again...

(This is where you find that the drip-rate may have changed very slightly. Its VERY Important however when setting the crank to the 25 degree mark Not To Turn The Crank Backwards if you go too far and miss it--Go Round Two-Turns Again!--This is because it will give a false reading if you do turn it backwards due to backlash in the chain and other drive items to the I.P.)

(For reference, the Correct direction of Rotation is Clockwise, when standing in front of the car looking at engine, Crank and Cam...)

If OK, Turn crank C-W from the I.P. Timing Setting point to the 0 degree mark or TDC, and just re-check the Cam Timing Marks one last time...

Re-Fit everything, checking all bolts for correct torque and re-set valve clearances.

Fire her up, and go have a beer!

--Worth keeping in mind, that as all the diesel-hard lines are now empty of fuel as they have been off the motor, some period of cranking will be needed before it will actually fire up--30-40 seconds is not unusual--You may need a second shot of 'glow-plugs' after the initial cranking....
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Well thats news:o I've never needed to do any timing on my euro 240D nor with my newly acquired TD.

I've never had to do the seals/O rings on the "M" pump either, never had a need to. Now that I have a higher mileage Euro 617 it might be time to learn.

I still wont forget how to time the non Euros:D

LOL, if you weren't all the way at the far end of the coast I'd invite you over for a beer, set an IP on the bench and demonstrate how easy and NOT messy the bubble method is, I dont need an assistant, so just injoy your beer:D.

Yes, Simple is good, Gravity Feed

I am not against the Bubble Method. I did not know that method of timing existed until I read it on the Forum.

I can do the Drip Method using the Hand Primer myself but that is because in the past I learned to do so and that is what I did when I timed the Mercedes last year.

As far as the equipment I mentioned you use the best that you have available at the time.

However, when people do the Drip Method for the first time they over look the fact that if the pressure fluctuates the amount of drips will also fluctuate and the instructions do not bring that up.

So I just say that the first few times you Drip Time let someone else Pump the Hand Primer while you concentrate on learnig.

Ounce a person has a better idea what to do they will easly learn how the keep the pressure up with the hand primer by themselves.

From what I have read more people Drip Time or attempt to Drip Time their IPs than use other methods.

I had 2 IP Timing/Locking Pins and sold them not realizing my IP had the Plug that fit them.
I wish I had one as I believe that is actually the easiest way to go.

A few years back I helped a guy get his old (late 70s) MB van going. He had the IP rebuild and they sent him the locking pin with instructions to "send it back when done". Are they rare, very expansive, made of unobtainaum, or what?