Please let us know where. My A/C work is picking up and I'm running low.

what parts of the country get -30°F and 105°F in the course of the seasons? what are the humidity levels at that high temp? Here in middle NC, the temps rarely hit 0°F, and Rarely reach 100°F, but the comfort of 134 is almost passable. the temps achieved from the 134 aren't the biggest problem, it's the lack of capacity. the lack of ability to handle idle traffic loads, and highway loads. and it's the damaging effects of 134 to the ancient R4 compressors. look at it this way.
134 must be loaded at 80% capacity of R12. the receiver never fills with liquid. so the txv is always getting spotty flow. and the pressures are higher.
why use it? because it doesn't damage the ozone layer? because it's not a hazzard? oh wait, it's a huge greenhouse gas... it is a smaller molecule, so it will ALWAYS leak out of R12 hoses, so to do it right, you have to change the hoses to coated 134 hoses... so much for a low cost replacement... wait, there's more? oh yeah... the 134 has problems ejecting heat, so a parallel flow condenser is needed... again, far from low cost...
really, why use 134?
12 works,
it's available,
it's low cost compared to the massive expense to do a proper 134 "conversion"
annnnd, R12 works!

[QUOTE=C Sean Watts;2491977] Unless you have a W123 made for the Middle East or Sub Saharan Africa market QUOTE]

Wondering out loud what components they put in those cars?

I get R12 in 30lb containers. I am not interested in the small cans. I did hear from some source that Auto zone or Oriellys can get it on special order and it is in the smaller cans. I have only heard this and I have no proof that this is true. Of course you have to have a 609 certificate to purchase it.

[QUOTE=TchTchr;2491983]Bigger radiators and condensers. I recently got back from Germany - while there, I went to the museum and saw a few models of the 'worldwide models.'

Hey John, do you have any experience with the HC alternatives such as ES12A? They require less refrigerant than R12 for a given system and thus have a lower compressor load which should extend compressor life. I have read that lubrication with ES12A is a problem with the R4 compressor because it is sumpless. I don't really buy that unless I see some proof.

My Canadian spec 450SEL works just fine with R134 in Texas :-). But I agree that maintaining an R12 system is not cost prohibitive.

Mine was converted before I bought it and works so well, I don't mess with it.

Nope.
I only use standard refrigerants.
I can see where the HC's would be lighter on the compressor, but oil flow is extremely important on the R4 compressors. the issue I see with lower vapor pressures is the expansion valve is designed to regulate flow of superheat, and with a low vapor pressure, you could be facing the compressor riding on the frost switch... if the heat of compression is high, with a low pressure point, it would be a good alternative, but it's difficult working with a blend in a leaky system like automotive a/c...

ditto for me.
It is amazing what chances people will take with their equipment..
and how much extra time and money they will risk rather than doing the standard proven thing...
A "NEED TO BE DIFFERENT " ? just contrary ? Don't understand the physics ? I don't know what causes it but it sure seems like a waste of good time and money.

I've been looking for affordable R12 for a month locally, this is the only thing I found so far and it is not affordable.

http://newyork.craigslist.org/wch/pts/1792677653.html

Do you have any? If I can get R12 reasonably priced I will use it.

John, thanks for the answer.

John , have you tried Ebay ?
it does not have to be local ....
just get your 609 (608?) test over the internet... open book, send in the $20 or so electronically, print out your license and put it into your pocket... and when you win just tell them the number.. I got my few cans that way... 12 oz cans...

You recently posted factually incorrect information and almost led another member astray regarding the proper function of the CCU on an SDL, where you clearly know nothing about it.

Now, on another thread, you post additional factually incorrect information regarding the generalized performance of R-134 under conditions that you have not experienced.

If such behavior continues, whereby your posts remain factually incorrect, they're going to be deleted en-masse.

I have the suspicion that your knowledge of vehicle maintenance is extremely limited and that you decide to throw up anything relevant and see if it will stick.

I won't tolerate it here.

Any further posts by you on this thread will be deleted.

$595 seems cheap compared to these guys :eek:


http://www.r22.org/prod_list.php?sci=5

Charlie

I exaggerated a little. It can get down to the negative teens in the winter (not that the A/C is used then anyway), but does regularly get into the 90's and around 100 in the summer. Humidity can be low or high during the summer here. Lately it has been upwards of mid 80's with temps in the upper 80's and low 90's. Temps have been known to change 20 to 30 degrees from one day to the next, or sometimes even the same day. The area I'm talking about is the central midwest, the area between the Mississippi and Rockies.

My retrofits usually include a new compressor, drier, draining of all oil, o-ring changes, and sometimes expansion valve (likely overkill), pressure switch, and valve cores. A higher cooling capacity condensor I'm sure would help much (as this is the biggest change on the OEM R-134a systems), but I don't do that. Have done a couple retrofits with just a drier, pressure switch, and o-rings which also worked. So my cost usually is not that much. When retrofits first were done, it was recommended to replace everything (big $$$), which I think was just a scare tactic. A few years ago I read this is not necessary, and parts such as hoses actually won't leak as theoretically the porosity has been "clogged" by the oil in the R-12. I've also read that the variable orifice expansions valves as used in the older Mercedes are actually better for retrofits than a fixed orifice. I have never found a definitely guide on retrofitting systems.

Just thought I'd add my input based on personal experience on retrofits, which has so far been positive, with no parts "blowing up" due to the conversion and operating pressures staying within reason. If you don't agree, then just pass over my comments. Not here to start a fight. To each his own. The reason I retrofit is due to the fact that cars with R-12 are at least 15 years old now, and with age, leaks develop. I have never had much luck stopping leaks 100%, so I'd rather loose R-134a than R-12. And retrofitting works for me.

You would think that over the decades auto A/C systems would have been changed dramatically to be trouble-free and leak-free, but that still isn't the case. They are not much different than when they first came out, which is really a disappointment given the technology today. I personally think the line connections used today might even leak more with age compared to the old flared fittings. I've seen refrigerators that are 60+ years old and still work good with no problem, but you will never say that with a car.

The argument between R-12 and R-134a sounds like the age-old argument whether Chevy or Ford is better. Have read recently that Europe wants to phase out R-134a for something more evironmentally friendly, so the R-12 saga may happen again someday with R-134a.

R-134a did not replace R-12 because of its efficiency as a refrigerant.