240D auto to manual swap - parts and costs? - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

rstl99 · #1 07-24-2010, 10:47 AM

Hi all

I'm considering buying a "manual kit" from an 83 to install a 4 speed in my 82 auto 240D at some point in the future (my auto runs fine, I just know I'd be happier with a stick, for obvious reasons). The guy says he pulled all the necessary parts out of a car that's since gone to the scrap heap. The engine and tranny are still connected, and someone else is probably buying the engine. Anyway, I'd like to make sure I get as complete a kit as possible, so I'm not having to hunt down parts afterwards. Here are the parts assemblies I will try to make sure are there and complete.
Pedal assembly
Transmission
Shifter and linkages
Clutch assembly
Flywheel
Clutch hydraulics (master and slave cylinders, line)
Driveshaft

Am I missing anything obvious?

In reading another thread of someone who did a similar swap, I saw that he replaced all the following parts with new ones while doing the job:
Master Cylinder
Slave Cylinder
Throwout Bearing
Pilot Bearing
Pressure Bolts
Flywheel Bolts
Transmission Mount
Pressure Plate
Clutch Plate

And that in the end, the tranny he put in had a bad internal bearing and he was forced to get another used one to replace it.

I have also read about the need to balance the flywheel (or match the balance on the auto to the manual one).

Seems to me that this kind of swap has a few risks (bad tranny) and can run up a few costs! Not to mention the gumption and space required to do all that work.

Anyway, just trying to look at all the angles before committing myself to this.

cth350 · #2 07-24-2010, 10:56 AM

the plate that holds up the rear of the transmission isn't on your list. -CTH

charmalu · #3 07-24-2010, 12:29 PM

the fly wheel bolts should be replaced when ever they are removed. It says this in the FSM (factory shop manual)

when I did my swap, I replaced the MC, Slave, FW bolts, Pressure Plate, Clutch Disc, Throw out bering,. I did have to buy the hard line with the rubber hose that connects to the Slave. Dealer item.

You might be able to have a hydraulic hose shop fab one up for you. the one`s I pulled from PNP wouldn`t come apart. corroded fittings.

You will have to have the manual FW matched balanced to the auto FW. make sure you mark the auto FW to the crank before removing it. there is a mark, look close for it. then when the manual FW is matched exactly as the auto, make sure the shop marks it, then mount it to the mark.

I had a Hot Rod speed shop that builds Street Rods etc... do it for me. they had a machine that spun the FW`s, and had a digital readout to show the balance. make sure the shop understands what you want.

I have read some FW are nutral balanced. and also the FW is balanced to the crank.

I would replace the MC and Slave. nothing like a leaky MC dripping on your shoes. when I mounted my peddle assy. I mounted the MC to it first. shoved the supply hose through the grommet & connected it to the MC nipple. I had a hose longer than I needed, and once the peddle assy was mounted, then cut the brake reservor end to the correct length.

Your used disc and Pressure plate may be ok, all depends how long you are going to keep/use the car. I replaced mine with new for the long haul.

Looks like you have the major components for the swap. It is mostly just a plug and play install.

If you only have the front DL section, it will have to be balanced with the rear section. this would be a good time to replace the center bearing.

Charlie

JB3 · #4 07-24-2010, 01:25 PM

if its a 240 though, and not a 5 cyl, can't he just clean up the flywheel, make sure its neutrally balanced, and install?
Instead of match balancing?

I did this with mine, its working fine, I did it that way because I thought that the 616 motors did not have the same balance issue that the 617s require when you do the swap. I could have been wrong and just lucked out.

rstl99 · #5 07-24-2010, 08:52 PM

Thanks for all the tips Charlie, much appreciated!!

Yeah, if I take the trouble to do this to my 240D, it's because I'm going to keep it a LONG time, so would make sense to get new parts in there (clutch disc, throwout bearing, clutch cylinders, etc.).

I suppose there is no sure way of assessing the quality of a 4 speed before putting it in (unless one has test-driven the car before)? I'd hate to go through all the trouble and have to drop it and get another 4 speed... An argument in favour of finding a complete running donor vehicle I suppose (rusted out but mechanically good). They don't come around often in these parts, hence my interest in buying this "kit".

Interesting question Dropnoksy, does the balancing matter more for the 5 cyl than the 4 cyl (which is possibly a more balance "neutral" configuration)?

charmalu · #6 07-24-2010, 09:42 PM

Well maybe they are nutral balanced, I really don`t know for sure. every thing I have read, favored match balancing.
I read a lot of threads, old and new and currently running at the time I was considering the swap.
So I had mine done to have it right. I didn`t want to have to remove the FW any more than having to just remove the transmission.

Finding a good used transmission is a crap shoot I guess. these old 240`s are 27 yrs for the newest one out there. the one I pulled and used is out of a 82 with 212K miles if I remember correctly. I was a good one, shifts smoothly, no noises etc.....
I have one out of a 83, and makes some growling noises turning the shaft in the various gears. can feel the roughness turning it. I first had it upside down when I rolled it out from under the car. gears wouldn`t turn, then rolling it around it turned. so something broken it it.
(going to use it for the Dropnosky slice n dice 5 spd project)

maybe just replacing the input shaft bearing would fix a lot of problems. i had the IP shaft bearing go out on my Datsun 5-spd years ago. started to run rough and make noise. we replaced all bearing at the time and has been runing great. over 400k on it now. this might fis many MB trans.

I came across 4 123 4 spds, a euro 201 4 spd and a 190-e 5 spd in the past month. If they didn`t get pulled, they are all bye bye now

.

Charlie

#7 07-25-2010, 08:55 AM

I have done several swaps like this over the years. What I learned is very simple. If you don't have the donor car within walking distance of the recipient during the project, it is going to be a PITA job.

EVERY time I've violated this rule I have had to go back to the donor for one or more parts or worse yet, had to start looking for a source of some obscure little piece.

The next best thing to having the donor on hand is that the donor car not be disturbed or crushed until you are through with the project.

My $0.02,

BTW, this is DEFINITELY a worthwhile project. A manual 240D is FAR superior to an automatic version.

rstl99 · #8 07-25-2010, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by charmalu

I read a lot of threads, old and new and currently running at the time I was considering the swap.
So I had mine done to have it right. I didn`t want to have to remove the FW any more than having to just remove the transmission.

Good point, best to take the necessary steps to do the job right than have to redo it! Wrenching can be fun, but more fun is driving the car!

Quote:

Originally Posted by charmalu

Finding a good used transmission is a crap shoot I guess. these old 240`s are 27 yrs for the newest one out there.

Another good point. Makes me question my intent to purchase this "kit" that's being offered to me, as it would come with no guarantee whatsoever on the health of the transmission...
Thanks for your additional input, which is very useful.

rstl99 · #9 07-25-2010, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LarryBible

I have done several swaps like this over the years. What I learned is very simple. If you don't have the donor car within walking distance of the recipient during the project, it is going to be a PITA job.

EVERY time I've violated this rule I have had to go back to the donor for one or more parts or worse yet, had to start looking for a source of some obscure little piece.

The next best thing to having the donor on hand is that the donor car not be disturbed or crushed until you are through with the project.

Thanks Larry, I recall having read this advice of yours before, and indeed it sounds like a much wiser approach. The seller of the "kit" said he has another 240D from which the engine has been taken out, but the rest is complete. That would be a better donor, given what you indicated, given most of the bits should be in place (except the flywheel, which may have gone with the engine).

I don't need to replace my auto anytime soon - it works well - so it's worth my time to wait for the proper (complete) donor to show up.

Cheers.

charmalu · #10 07-25-2010, 10:34 AM

If you do have to remove the manual transmission for whatever reason down the road. they really aren`t all that heavy. I have removed around 6 of them from PNP. after the eng/trans bolts are removed, wiggle it back, down towards your chest, and roll it over onto the ground.
Just be sure to have a jack or stand to hold the rear of the engine from dropping down.

I checked the weight of the 4 spd, using a bathroom scale, and holding the trans. think it was 54#. the 5 spd out of a 190-E is 84#.

Just because the trans comes out of a 27 plus yr old car, doesn`t mean it is going to be a bad one.
The PNP JY I have pulled them from, drain the oil, so when turning the gears they won`t be as smooth as if the oil was still in.
Turn the input shaft while in each gear, as well as the out put shaft and feel each gear. It won`t tell though if it has a synchro that is bad.

How much does the guy want for hid Kit?
A trans from PNP out the door , with tax/inviro fee/core added is $149. FW $30. shifter is $25, peddles about the same, shift rods $10 or so, driveline $27.

Charlie

Stevo · #11 07-25-2010, 10:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rstl99

Thanks Larry, I recall having read this advice of yours before,

Cheers.

Thats good advice

I have done several of these swaps also have never had a problem with using a neutrally balanced flywheel (NO witness marks on F/W or crank) but it sure wouldn't hurt if you have the time and $.

rstl99 · #12 07-29-2010, 08:27 AM

Will be going to see a guy who has apparently accumulated over 40 MB's over the years, and has a few 240's with sticks. He would be willing to sell me one, and I can drive it down the road to check transmission condition etc. He's looking to get $1500 for it (what he paid for it a few years ago) which is a bit beyond what I thought I would pay for a donor. Because after I pull the transmission etc from it, I probably couldn't get a lot for what's left, and don't really have the room to keep a parts car in the driveway... The advantage is that I would be sure of getting a good-working transmission, as opposed to buying a non-running donor or a "kit".

The guy was also telling me that a 4 speed is quite easy to take apart and repair/overhaul. True?

JB3 · #13 07-29-2010, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rstl99

The guy was also telling me that a 4 speed is quite easy to take apart and repair/overhaul. True?

yup, a good pair of snap ring pliers and you are in business

Stevo · #14 07-29-2010, 11:58 AM

Yah, then all you have to do is get all those little parts back together in the right order, Thats where I might have a problem

rstl99 · #15 07-29-2010, 12:14 PM

In reading some older threads on the subject of rebuilding/refurbishing a 4 speed, the general consensus seemed to be that indeed, it's not rocket science, but the killer is the cost of the replacement costs (ex. $100 for a synchro), making rebuilding one of these cost-prohibitive. The advice seemed to be: if yours if giving you trouble, just get another used one and hope it's better...
That's too bad if true (costly parts), it would have been interesting to try, as a winter project kind of thing...