... as is evidenced by my last 20 threads on here, I've never going to get past the wheels on my 87 300D. No pun intended, but I'm going in circles. What's wrong: front end vibration since last fall. What I've done: Flex discs, center bearing, wheel bearings, calipers, discs, pads, hoses, steering damper.
I replaced the wheel bearings and races this month and I'm not convinced I did it right. I decided to recheck the bearing play today and noticed this: While the in-out motion was limited to a tick over .0005 inches, I could grab 12 and 6 and push-pull on them alternately and could "rock" the hub very slightly but still noticeably. Not the case doing the same thing at 3 and 9. I tightened the nut so the in-out play was a little less than .0005 and can no longer "rock" the hub. It strikes me as odd that it moved like that at all when it was (at least by my measurements) within spec. So:
-Does it suggest I have worn hubs (or spindles) or incorrectly seated races?
-Or were my bearings just a snip too loose? Again, on the tighter end of spec, the hub cannot be rocked perceptibly.
I seated the races using a bearing press and the appropriate race press tool, and they felt like they pressed evenly on the seats (I also cleaned and visually inspected the seats). I can't tell you whether the hubs moved like this before I replaced the races/bearings or not because I never tried that particular motion before.
Thanks, and I'm sorry I never contribute anything to this board anymore other than constant brake/bearing questions ...

FWIW, I am taking the car to have the wheels balanced and rotated this week ... it did occur to me that might be the vibration source.

__________________
1987 300D, arctic white/palomino--314,000 miles
1978 240D 4-speed, Euro Delivery, light ivory/bamboo--370,000 miles
2005 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited, light khaki/slate--140,000 miles
2018 Chevy Cruze diesel, 6-speed manual, satin steel metallic/kalahari--19,000 miles
1982 Peugeot 505 diesel, 4-speed manual, blue/blue, 130,000 miles
1995 S320, black/parchment--34,000 miles (Dad's car)

x2 on wheel balance....first things first.....

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'85 300D Turbo - CA Version

Definitely. It was supposed to be done Monday; I dropped it off but they didn't get to it and I had to take it back since I had to go to work. Then I was sick. Hopefully they'll fit it in tomorrow or Friday.

That said, even if that fixes the vibration, I do still want to know if what I observed in the hubs is abnormal, or if the bearings were simply loose. If my races are incorrectly installed or defective, I don't want to drive that way even if it isn't symptomatic. If they were just loose, all's well now.

__________________
1987 300D, arctic white/palomino--314,000 miles
1978 240D 4-speed, Euro Delivery, light ivory/bamboo--370,000 miles
2005 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited, light khaki/slate--140,000 miles
2018 Chevy Cruze diesel, 6-speed manual, satin steel metallic/kalahari--19,000 miles
1982 Peugeot 505 diesel, 4-speed manual, blue/blue, 130,000 miles
1995 S320, black/parchment--34,000 miles (Dad's car)

x3 on the wheel balance

if that doesn't work, move the front tires to the back and see if the vibration moves . . . a bad tire can also cause a vibration that will have you searching all over the car

__________________
'95 E300D ("Tank") - 231,000 miles
'79 240D ("Biscuit") - 197,250 miles (Sold)
'83 240D ("Ding-Ding") - 217,000 miles (Death by deer)
______________________________________

"Back off, man. I’m a scientist” ~ Peter Venkman

As the amount of movement you are "observing" is extremly minute, is there a possibility that you're observing play of the wheel carrier/hub on the ball joint and interpeting that as bearing/spindle play? The reason I ask is usually 12/6 o'clock apparent play of the wheel plane would suggest that, and combined with the absence of 9/3 o'clock play is a condition that would point away from bearing/spindle/hub movement. If it was that I would think you would have been able to roate the hub 90 degrees and the play would have changed oriantation corresspondingly.

Being as certain ,as it can be, that the wheels are balanced is always a good starting point, in your recent brake thread you mentioned a "chuff-chuffing" noise during slow rolling rotation, I would look at the tire closely for something like that. Switching tires side to side can be useful as a diagnostic, is the sound follows it's the wheel/tire if it doesn't it's in the mechanicals of the side. A nail/screw/etc can create that effect as can even a rock lodged in the tread. Not being able to replicate the sound with the wheel turning off the ground is something of a clue also.

Good point on changing the orientation of the hub ... I did rotate it and noticed the same thing, so you're right, it doesn't really follow as a hub/race issue. However, I had the dial gauge mounted with the needle on the spindle and the base on the hub, and the needle would move up and down as I pushed/pulled on 12/6, suggesting the hub was moving and the spindle wasn't. I'll try it again while focusing on the ball joint ... maybe it's just a perception thing. I guess it could still be a spindle issue, but inspection of them didn't reveal anything noticeable.

Re: the "chuff chuff" noise ... it's most noticeable on right-hand turns, it sounds like it's coming from the right, so if it's a tire thing I should find out a lot once they're rotated. I also notice when I spin the wheel off the ground, the pads lightly drag (the more I observe, I really don't think they drag abnormally), but what's odd is they drag a tiny bit more during some parts of the rotation than others ... as if it weren't spinning straight (this is the case with the wheel on or off). It looks dead straight, but eyes can only perceive so much. Maybe I can do something with the dial gauge to assess that.

I'll report back whether the tire rotation/balance changes anything. Got my fingers crossed. That would be too easy.

__________________
1987 300D, arctic white/palomino--314,000 miles
1978 240D 4-speed, Euro Delivery, light ivory/bamboo--370,000 miles
2005 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited, light khaki/slate--140,000 miles
2018 Chevy Cruze diesel, 6-speed manual, satin steel metallic/kalahari--19,000 miles
1982 Peugeot 505 diesel, 4-speed manual, blue/blue, 130,000 miles
1995 S320, black/parchment--34,000 miles (Dad's car)

I vote against the wheel balance if they have been replaced or balanced in your ownership or recently.

Does your vibration happens during acceleration? could very well be the transmission mount.

Have you replaced the tie rods?


Have some faith in the work you have done. It sounds like you know what you're doing.

I learned a long time ago that if your "troubleshooting" is going to consist of throwing money at a prolem until it disappears, you always start with the cheap and simple things first. In fact, I learned that lesson on a problem very similar to this - replacing just about everything including a half-shaft to address a vibration issue which turned out to be a bad tire. If I had simply moved the tire or replaced them one by one with the spare, I would have saved a lot of money. I wouldn't bother throwing money/time at tie rods and transmissions mount until I ruled out the wheels and tires. Of course, both tie rods and mounts are items that can visually inspected to give you some clue of their status, so there is no harm there.

__________________
'95 E300D ("Tank") - 231,000 miles
'79 240D ("Biscuit") - 197,250 miles (Sold)
'83 240D ("Ding-Ding") - 217,000 miles (Death by deer)
______________________________________

"Back off, man. I’m a scientist” ~ Peter Venkman

Oh yes so true.

Start cheap and small and work your way up to big and expensive.

Also I think the 6 - 12 => 3 - 9 gripping routine you've gone through is including another part of the suspension.

__________________
1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!

I couldn't agree more. That is why my suggestion was conditional; based on personal experience which is currently recurring.

I vote tie rod ends. Very easy to check with another person. Have them sit in the car and move steering left/right just enough to load up some resistance, to the point where wheels begin to move. Then steer the other way, back and forth. Moving the steering wheel only a few degrees. You lie on the ground and watch the tie rod ends with a flashlight. If you see the steering linkage moving left or right - even a smidgen - without the wheels also showing movement in the same direction, replace your sorry ball joints, or whole tie rods. Maybe keep a hand on the wheel so you'll feel it begin to move in relation to the linkage you are watching. If the two are out of synch you'll get vibration that feels like out-of-balance, but is really a shimmy.

I did both complete rods on both sides and center drag link all at once even though only one ball joint showed slop. Vibration gone.

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Cheers!
Scott McPhee

1987 300D

Bodhi
A vibration can be one of the hardest problems to find, but with a little work you can fix it. First, at what speed do you feel the vibration? Watch the hood, yes the hood, and see if it vibrates a little. If so, is it worst on the left or right side? Do you feel it more in the seat or the steering wheel? How about when you accelerate or slow down, or breaking, does it change, or is it only speed related? You don't need to answer each question as listed, just think about the vibration while driving and there will be a clue there somewhere. I will say, I had a vibration at 50 to 70 mph on my 500SEL. It almost, no it did drive me crazy. It turned out the left front wheel hub was bent. New one fixed it. I did all the above things but the problem would never change. It may seem to get better sometimes but would not go away. The clue was the hood would just quiver a little on the left side, never on the right.
As far as your wheel bearings, they are fine. A slight bit of play will neither hurt or help. The way I adjust mine is tighten then up with a tool, turn the wheel a few times to make sure there are no real tight spots or anything, loosen it up, then tighten it up by hand and lock them down. Check for play and if there is any, I tighten them up just a little more until the play is gone. Then any time I have the wheels off the ground, I grab them and give a shake. If I feel a LITTLE play at this I leave it alone. Been doing it for 50 years and have never had a bearing fail.
A small amount of play just about anywhere will not cause a vibration, only make it more pronounced. If your vibration only starts after you hit a bump then you may have something worn out, but a consistent vibration is something else. Something bent, out of balance, out of round, etc.
good luck
Paul
ps, how is the BP doing. This week has been especially bad for me this week. 137/75 sitting, 99/65 standing. Well, not standing for long.

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84 500 SEL (307,xxx miles)

Thanks guys for all the ideas. I left the car off tonight for a balance/rotation and should be able to pick it up tomorrow. It's free because I bought the tires there, IIRC. I haven't had either done since I bought the tires 20,000 miles ago so it certainly won't hurt to have it done. One of my front tires didn't have a weight on the outside, not sure if it just didn't need one or if it fell off. So, we'll see tomorrow.
I don't think it's the tranny mount, because it's actually not as noticeable under heavier load than when cruising along. It's not particularly noticeable when braking. In sum: Stopping and going seem OK ... cruising along gets ugly. I'll check out the tie rods ... I hadn't really thought of that because they're fairly new (five or six years), but I guess that doesn't mean they're perfect.
Paul, I should update my BP thread in OT, but I'm actually doing pretty well. Upping the salt and water didn't seem to help so my cardiologist prescribed Midodrine in a very low dose. It makes me a little nervous to take something that raises my BP, but he answered all my questions very thoroughly. I have taken it for two days and feel great so far ... my BP has been just about perfect on every check, knock on wood. I hope to be able to go back off it when the really oppressively hot days pass, but it's helping me for now.

__________________
1987 300D, arctic white/palomino--314,000 miles
1978 240D 4-speed, Euro Delivery, light ivory/bamboo--370,000 miles
2005 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited, light khaki/slate--140,000 miles
2018 Chevy Cruze diesel, 6-speed manual, satin steel metallic/kalahari--19,000 miles
1982 Peugeot 505 diesel, 4-speed manual, blue/blue, 130,000 miles
1995 S320, black/parchment--34,000 miles (Dad's car)

Hey bodhi,
I recently read an article about how beetroot (the red stuff) juice lowers blood pressure as good as most medications.
Seeing Paul's comment reminded me.
If you like beetroot on salads & hamburgers best you stop eating it if you have low BP.
If you are on medication that raises it, maybe you could start eating it to lower your BP.
The article was in a "what the Doctors dont tell you" forum.

Hope that helps.

__________________
Grumpy Old Diesel Owners Club group

I no longer question authority, I annoy authority. More effect, less effort....

1967 230-6 auto parts car. rust bucket.
1980 300D now parts car 800k miles
1984 300D 500k miles
1987 250td 160k miles English import
2001 jeep turbo diesel 130k miles
1998 jeep tdi ~ followed me home. Needs a turbo.
1968 Ford F750 truck. 6-354 diesel conversion.
Other toys ~J.D.,Cat & GM ~ mainly earth moving

I've also heard good things about garlic widening your arteries - comes with bad breath issues of course - but then it keeps away the vampires...

__________________
1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!