Well, I went in and talked to a service adviser at the local MB dealership today and I'm not really sure what to make of it. He was very nice, even though I think he thought I was a moron, I didn't do a very good job of explaining my situation. He said they would be glad to do an alignment, but that he doubted that was the issue and that he would recommend experimenting with the tires before spending money on a second alignment (i.e., try rotating them and see if it does anything different, spin each and check for defects, etc.). I showed him a printout of your 124, gxsr, and asked him about the total toe and steer ahead, but he didn't think that was likely the problem, and that the independent shop probably would have noticed those issues (he did know of the shop and said he thought they were very good, the second-best option for a MB alignment, with the dealer being first). Of course, all he had to go by was my description of what the car does. To be honest I have a hard time imaging the tracking would be that affected by the tires, even though now both my indy and this dealer adviser have said that. Or at least, I'm not confident enough to go out and buy $600 worth of tires to replace brand new tires. The alignment is only $90 if I decide to do that first instead.
He did reiterate what my indy and others have said in that he doubted it was my work that caused the problem ... if the new frame were bent or something installed wrong, it would have been very obvious during the first alignment. He also asked about wheel bearings, front suspension, steering linkage and so forth, which was nice, he took his time to help me think of other things to check first.
So ... for the heck of it I'm going to switch tires front to rear, and I'll check each for inconsistencies or uneven running. Other than that I'll think about it ($90 isn't very much ...). It's very drivable. It's amazingly comfortable and smooth and sometimes I think "wow, I'm nuts, this car tracks perfectly" ... but if it's windy/breezing or I'm on a truck rut ... then the flakiness starts again.

__________________
1987 300D, arctic white/palomino--314,000 miles
1978 240D 4-speed, Euro Delivery, light ivory/bamboo--370,000 miles
2005 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited, light khaki/slate--140,000 miles
2018 Chevy Cruze diesel, 6-speed manual, satin steel metallic/kalahari--19,000 miles
1982 Peugeot 505 diesel, 4-speed manual, blue/blue, 130,000 miles
1995 S320, black/parchment--34,000 miles (Dad's car)

Definitely a good idea - wouldn't hurt. What brand / size tires did you buy, btw? I forget.



Ah yes, but did the indy shop printout show those specs? If not - I'm suspicious. If so, and if they were in spec, I'd still want to know if the spreader bar was used. If not - their printout is invalid.



With used tires, definitely. With new tires, very unlikely, but possible. I've had used tires cause problems before, but never new ones. (I usually just have balance / wobble issues with new tires, lol!)



I would absolutely NOT buy another set of new tires unless there was concrete proof they were at fault. Only way to prove this is ot swap on a different set of wheels/tires from a "known good" donor car and drive a day or two on 'em.



I'm nearly certain that your work has nothing to do with the problem.



Definitely wouldn't hurt to double-check that stuff. I think I already mentione the steering shock before. (?) But I've driven cars with dead steering shocks that didn't wander, and didn't behave vastly different when a new one was installed.



Excellent idea, and free!



Those were the exact symptoms on the car you have the printout of. And that car had tires which were worn (evenly) to the wear bars. Even with the shot tires, the problem vanished after the alignment.

__________________
Dave
Boise, ID
Check out my website photos, documents, and movies!

They are BF Goodrich Advantage, but I'll have to doublecheck the size.

I did not think to ask, but I bet they would ... I might go back and ask if they can still print it, although I'm trying to think of a way to do that without sounding accusatory.

That's what I was thinking ... unless there's some sort of defect I haven't noticed. I'll see what happens when I rotate them, and if I suspect it's making the difference, maybe I can find someone to borrow wheels and tires from.

Thanks! When I really think about it, I'm pretty confident that everything was done right, but the occasional paranoid "what if" sneaks up on me now and then.

I forgot to replay earlier about the steering shock, but I did replace that about a year and a half ago. Wouldn't be too hard to check it, though. I did check the wheel bearings a couple nights ago and don't feel any play, and did a visual inspection of linkage, ball joints, control arm bushings and all look healthy. Would front swaybar bushings make a difference in wandering? They look pretty good, but that's the one part of the suspension I don't have a record of being replaced, so it popped into my mind.

__________________
1987 300D, arctic white/palomino--314,000 miles
1978 240D 4-speed, Euro Delivery, light ivory/bamboo--370,000 miles
2005 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited, light khaki/slate--140,000 miles
2018 Chevy Cruze diesel, 6-speed manual, satin steel metallic/kalahari--19,000 miles
1982 Peugeot 505 diesel, 4-speed manual, blue/blue, 130,000 miles
1995 S320, black/parchment--34,000 miles (Dad's car)

... rear swaybar or front?
the rear swaybar bushings really hold the suspension in line...
front does very little to keep the car straight.

__________________
John HAUL AWAY, OR CRUSHED CARS!!! HELP ME keep the cars out of the crusher! A/C Thread
"as I ride with my a/c on... I have fond memories of sweaty oily saturdays and spewing R12 into the air. THANKS for all you do!

My drivers:
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5-5SPEED!!!

1987 300TD
1987 300TD
1994GMC 2500 6.5Turbo truck... I had to put the ladder somewhere!

If you want to really lose sleep and create self-doubt, take it over the grating on the South Market St. bridge. Due to my worn bushings and resulant tire wear, it redefines the word "squirrelly"

__________________
Hanno
'79 6.9 Sold (after 27 years)
'83 280SL, 5 spd.
'94 E320 Sdn. 5 spd conversion
'02 E320 Sdn.(on loan to mom!)
'87 300E (5 spd. conversion) Sold
'05 E500 Wagon

to really appreciate this test, you need to do it in the rain on bald tires!

__________________
John HAUL AWAY, OR CRUSHED CARS!!! HELP ME keep the cars out of the crusher! A/C Thread
"as I ride with my a/c on... I have fond memories of sweaty oily saturdays and spewing R12 into the air. THANKS for all you do!

My drivers:
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5Turbo
1987 190D 2.5-5SPEED!!!

1987 300TD
1987 300TD
1994GMC 2500 6.5Turbo truck... I had to put the ladder somewhere!

I was thinking of the front, but I guess I should take a careful look at the rear, too. The rear sway bar, bushings and links were all replaced in 2004 (70k miles ago) and I thought they looked excellent at the time of my subframe job so I did not replace them. But I'll take another close look while I'm swapping the tires around.

hanno, now I'm morbidly curious. I hate driving over grating, in any car!

__________________
1987 300D, arctic white/palomino--314,000 miles
1978 240D 4-speed, Euro Delivery, light ivory/bamboo--370,000 miles
2005 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited, light khaki/slate--140,000 miles
2018 Chevy Cruze diesel, 6-speed manual, satin steel metallic/kalahari--19,000 miles
1982 Peugeot 505 diesel, 4-speed manual, blue/blue, 130,000 miles
1995 S320, black/parchment--34,000 miles (Dad's car)

There is an old New Zealand Toyota advertisement that you may get a giggle from, I have posted it on the video forum in the past, you can find it on youtube.

__________________
Grumpy Old Diesel Owners Club group

I no longer question authority, I annoy authority. More effect, less effort....

1967 230-6 auto parts car. rust bucket.
1980 300D now parts car 800k miles
1984 300D 500k miles
1987 250td 160k miles English import
2001 jeep turbo diesel 130k miles
1998 jeep tdi ~ followed me home. Needs a turbo.
1968 Ford F750 truck. 6-354 diesel conversion.
Other toys ~J.D.,Cat & GM ~ mainly earth moving

Cool, BFG's are decent, I wouldn't expect any weirdness from them. Size should be irrelevant (for this issue) but hopefully they're stock 195/65 or maybe 205/60, assuming you have stock wheels.



Easy: Tell them you keep detailed records on the car, and forgot to ask them for the printout when you had it aligned. You just want to add it to your files for future reference.



I'd be shocked if you cured the problem and the root cause turned out to be something you did on the subframe rebuild. It's up there with winning the lottery or getting hit by lightning.



Did you set wheel bearing end play with a dial indicator? The MB spec is stupidy tight (0.01-0.02 mm) and a bit of a nuisance to check / adjust. Just curious, how old (or how many miles, approx) are on the front steering pieces (tie rod, drag link, idler arm)?



Swaybar bushings causing wandering is up there with the lottery/lightning thing. Those will cause squeaks, or maybe a tad more body roll, but that's it.

Sorry to chip in again - and I'm doing so without reading the entire thread - but has anyone suggested to check the friction allowance on the steering?

And X2 on the wheel bearings - simple check.

__________________
1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!

Quote:
Originally Posted by BodhiBenz1987
To be honest I have a hard time imaging the tracking would be that affected by the tires, even though now both my indy and this dealer adviser have said that.

From GSXR:
With used tires, definitely. With new tires, very unlikely, but possible. I've had used tires cause problems before, but never new ones. (I usually just have balance / wobble issues with new tires, lol!)

I had a brand new set of tires with a bad belt in one that caused handling concerns on a FWD car. The retailer blamed the car, the local Firestone shop diagnosed the bad tire as a "radial pull" caused by a broken/misaligned belt. Armed with that info the retailer simply provided me a brand new tire. Problem solved.

Good discussion of what to check for when swapping tires here: http://www.aa1car.com/library/tires2.htm

The tires are 195/65, that's what I thought but I had to doublecheck. For the most part they've been fine ... quiet, good traction, good around corners. I did swap them yesterday but only had a chance to drive a little ... I didn't notice any wandering but I'm considering it inconclusive until i have a chance to drive it on the highway a little more.
The wheel bearings I replaced 4,000 miles ago and set the play with a dial indicator to spec. Then I checked it obsessive-compulsively over and over. I even did a recheck after a couple hundred miles.
As for the other parts: Tie rods have about 27,000 miles on them, OE. Drag link has less than 3,000. Steering damper about 8,200. Idler arm bushings 8,300. All OE. The only thing that looks questionable are the LCA bushings, which have about 80,000 miles on them. They don't look alarmingly bad, but I see some cracks starting in the ones at the front of the wishbone.
Geez, looking back at my records, I sure have done a lot in the past year! But at least solved a lot ... no vibrations, no shooting sideways in the rear, no awful clunks and squeaks.
Yak, I'll check out that tire site, looks like very helpful stuff, thanks!
Army, forgive my ignorance, but is friction allowance the same as the steering play? If not, how can I check it? I will say I don't get the sense from the wheel that there's a play problem ... i.e., it's ultra responsive to my input at the wheel. But I guess there could still be play in the box?

__________________
1987 300D, arctic white/palomino--314,000 miles
1978 240D 4-speed, Euro Delivery, light ivory/bamboo--370,000 miles
2005 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited, light khaki/slate--140,000 miles
2018 Chevy Cruze diesel, 6-speed manual, satin steel metallic/kalahari--19,000 miles
1982 Peugeot 505 diesel, 4-speed manual, blue/blue, 130,000 miles
1995 S320, black/parchment--34,000 miles (Dad's car)

Almost forgot, here's a nice big photo gallery from my project. Before and after. I wish I'd gotten some better pics of before but I guess I was a little antsy about getting started and not focused on pictures.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/31264961@N02/sets/72157626151862442/
I do have the old wheel bearings and carrier bearings, which I'll add pictures of when I get around to it. Pretty spooky stuff, those are.

__________________
1987 300D, arctic white/palomino--314,000 miles
1978 240D 4-speed, Euro Delivery, light ivory/bamboo--370,000 miles
2005 Jeep Liberty CRD Limited, light khaki/slate--140,000 miles
2018 Chevy Cruze diesel, 6-speed manual, satin steel metallic/kalahari--19,000 miles
1982 Peugeot 505 diesel, 4-speed manual, blue/blue, 130,000 miles
1995 S320, black/parchment--34,000 miles (Dad's car)

Friction allowance is slightly different from steering play - the friction is more to do with the turning feel of the steering. It shouldn't be too responsive or too sluggish.

From what I can see (via a Google search) the W124 is of a similar breed to the W123: On the W123 you have a limit on the steering box for the amount of friction that is required to turn the Pitman arm. I understand that this limit can be measured at the steering wheel or at the steering box (either end of the shaft).

I think it is worth while looking at chapters 46-0120 and 4650

(It may not be worth your while carrying out the procedures though! But I'm guessing you are running out of options)

__________________
1992 W201 190E 1.8 171,000 km - Daily driver
1981 W123 300D ~ 100,000 miles / 160,000 km - project car stripped to the bone
1965 Land Rover Series 2a Station Wagon CIS recovery therapy!
1961 Volvo PV544 Bare metal rat rod-ish thing

I'm here to chat about cars and to help others - I'm not here "to always be right" like an internet warrior



Don't leave that there - I'll take it to bits!

Don't feel bad, my C230 has a virtually new front end and every time I drive over that bridge I check my lane alignment - it kind of feels like you're flying a plane in bad weather!!

Bodhi: If you wanted to try a tire swap I could set you up with a set of almost new Michelin Exaltos in stock 195/65 size from a car in my extended fleet. Drop me an e-mail if you want to give it a try.

__________________
98 Dodge-Cummins pickup (123k)
13 GLK250 (135k)
06 E320CDI (323K)
16 C300 (62K)
82 300GD Gelaendewagen (54K)