Parts Catalog Accessories Catalog How To Articles Tech Forums
Call Pelican Parts at 888-280-7799
Shopping Cart Cart | Project List | Order Status | Help



Go Back   PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum > Mercedes-Benz Tech Information and Support > Diesel Discussion

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #31  
Old 11-02-2010, 10:27 PM
layback40's Avatar
Not Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Victoria Australia - down under!!
Posts: 4,023
I think you will find that is marketing BS. If you check out the requirements for ATF, friction modifiers are not put in as they can do nasty things to clutches & 1 way units.
They could argue that any oil is a friction modifier.
What people are thinking of is things that are based on moly disulphide, it can for carborundum (moly oxide ) when burned. They dont put moly in ATF.

__________________
Grumpy Old Diesel Owners Club group

I no longer question authority, I annoy authority. More effect, less effort....

1967 230-6 auto parts car. rust bucket.
1980 300D now parts car 800k miles
1984 300D 500k miles
1987 250td 160k miles English import
2001 jeep turbo diesel 130k miles
1998 jeep tdi ~ followed me home. Needs a turbo.
1968 Ford F750 truck. 6-354 diesel conversion.
Other toys ~J.D.,Cat & GM ~ mainly earth moving
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 11-02-2010, 10:38 PM
oldiesel's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: florida
Posts: 677
Well if you feel you know more about ATF than Valvoline then any farther discussion is a waste of time. Don
__________________
Red Green "This is only temporary,Unless it works!"

97 E300D 157000 miles
87 300TD ?141k? miles
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 11-03-2010, 05:11 AM
Olivier's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 570
Quote:
Originally Posted by whunter View Post
Lack of power/shuddering.

On the E300 the most common issues are:

* Bad fuel pre-filter/O-ring.
* Bad E300 Turbo Diesel Plastic injection pump lines, OM606.962
* Bad/leaking shutoff valve.

= air leaks into the fuel system..

The other suggestion in your case (using WVO) is a plugged fuel tank strainer/screen.

.
Hi Wunter,
Pre filter and Orings are OK
Lines and Orings are new ish
Shut of valve seems to be OK as I took it off awhile ago and it seemed to be OK.
I have no bubbles in the system.
I removed the tank strainer long ago, then theis can't be it.
This is why I am puzzled...
Cheers.
__________________
E300TD year 2000. RUSTY SOLD
cost a fortune to maintain on the road
but run well on WVO
Second Merc died due to corrosion ( NOT rust) How can mercedes get away with that for so long?
Third lasted a month then went away...
Fourth now... Corroded too...
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 11-03-2010, 05:21 AM
Olivier's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 570
Quote:
Originally Posted by layback40 View Post
When you had the lift pump off, did you try & manually pump diesel through it?
1: Did yo test the 2 valves to make sure they did not leak?
2: Do you have a booster pump to take care of the extra pressure losses from the WVO?
Best you go visit some one like W124 or Alistair. They are in your country, let them see what sort of a mess you have.

3:Lack of funds is no reason not to do what is needed. Best you take public transport until you have the funds to do what is needed.
1: No, as I already said I just look at it. I don't know how it work and some guidance on what to do there would be appreciated.
2: this was not needed before the ATF experience and is therefore not necessary. This is my third year on WVO. Again, before the ATF the car was swiftier then most E class that are on Dino.
3: not only you ask other member not to bother answering anymore to this topic ( Who the hell do you think you are?) but now you are also insulting me and been condecendant telling me to use public transport or put 3000 pounds of diesel into the tank, hoping it might (but we are not sure) cure the problem .
Now before I get rude lower your tone.
This is not a topic where I am asking Should I or not take the bus.
Olivier
__________________
E300TD year 2000. RUSTY SOLD
cost a fortune to maintain on the road
but run well on WVO
Second Merc died due to corrosion ( NOT rust) How can mercedes get away with that for so long?
Third lasted a month then went away...
Fourth now... Corroded too...
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 11-03-2010, 07:50 AM
layback40's Avatar
Not Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Victoria Australia - down under!!
Posts: 4,023
The degeneration from WVO sometimes takes a long time before it is noticeable, a bit like some cancers. When asking how to fix a problem, best not dismiss some suggestions because it doesnt suit your beliefs. Many suggestions were made in good faith. I am not being judgmental. You gave a reason why you couldnt follow a particular way of fixing you car problem, I simply did a little brainstorming on that.
There is nothing wrong with using public transport. Many who use it are making a sound economic decision.

I am concerned by your belief in ATF causing the problem, it was in trouble before you added it. I dont believe the problem would not have developed as it has without the ATF.
I have suggested others nearer to you who may be able to look at what you have.
If you are so sure of how some things were in the past, then why have you not diagnosed the problem with out suggestion from others.
There have been several suggestions of diagnostics on the motor that have been glossed over.
There have been suggestions from some of the most knowledgeable people on this site that have not been followed or acted on. When some of that advice is followed, there may be more.
Maybe who ever provided you with the information that resulted in you doing the conversion should be consulted on the problem.

Alternatively take the car to a competent MB mechanic & pay him to fix it for you.

In the mean time have a read of

http://www.ncat.org/special/oilseeds_innovations4.php

There are several people on this forum who believe that what you are seeing is nothing more than a version of "death in a jug". That is why you are not getting swamped with suggestions. There are emails going around suggesting not to get involved.
__________________
Grumpy Old Diesel Owners Club group

I no longer question authority, I annoy authority. More effect, less effort....

1967 230-6 auto parts car. rust bucket.
1980 300D now parts car 800k miles
1984 300D 500k miles
1987 250td 160k miles English import
2001 jeep turbo diesel 130k miles
1998 jeep tdi ~ followed me home. Needs a turbo.
1968 Ford F750 truck. 6-354 diesel conversion.
Other toys ~J.D.,Cat & GM ~ mainly earth moving

Last edited by layback40; 11-03-2010 at 08:08 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 11-03-2010, 08:39 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldiesel View Post
Very strange that Valvoline believes there are friction modifiers in their ATF and our "experts" here are sure Valvoline is wrong. http://www.valvoline.com/products/brands/maxlife/automatic-transmission-fluid/37

you would really think a company like Valvoline would get their FACTS straight and stop spreading old wives tales like friction modifiers in their ATF. Don

There isn't much point Valvoline trying to get their FACTS right when people are too stupid to read what they write.

Valvoline Maxlife dex/merc ATF is a SYNTHETIC base fluid (I DID mention this previously) and not a mineral base fluid.

It is a Dexron/Mercon 6 fluid, Dexron I, II, and III are all mineral based. Dexron and Mercon are two entirely separate standards.... thank Ford for that. Nowadays there are about 30 different ATF fluid standards, Toyota, Honda, Nissian, etc etc etc

In any event, Valvoline are notorious for "extras" in an attempt to market their stuff as a premium product, they used to do an ATF with anti leak additives, bloody dreadful idea. Fix your ****ing seals if they are leaking.

Dexron 4 and later are lower viscocity than Dexron 3 and earlier, and EXACTLY LIKE SYNTHETIC MULTIGRADE MOTOR OILS, such as 0W30 which is in fact 100% 0 weight oil which behaves like 30 weight at higher temperatures due to its polymer chain construction, eg FRICTION MODIFIER, Dexron 4 and later have the same features to cope with the increased thermal load in modern auto transmissions.

Dexron 3 in a 2010 Mercedes Benz auto trans will eventually kill the trans, because the Dex3 cannot handle the thermal loads and because it is more viscous than the specified fluid.

Nobody on here is running a 2010 MB, it is all W123 and W124, eg Dexron III era products.

You shouldn't put Dex 6 in a 1970, 1980 or 1990 MB trans, as it will damage it just like Dex3 in a 2010 one, it is too thin. It is not what it was designed for.

So you link to a Dex6 product, in order to attempt to prove me a liar about Dex3, which is all anyone on these forums is ever going to be using.

I have ALWAYS been careful to be specific, and say Dexron III, I never JUST say "ATF" or "Dexron" or my usual type "Dextron", I ALWAYS say Dexron III

I think perhaps your problem is that you (and maybe many others) do not understand that when people talk about the oil in "oil + detergent + anti-foam" you think the "oil" in question is some 100% purse distilled single malt whisky, and not blended bourbon.

As far as I know the only 100% pure motor oil that I have ever bought was Castrol R, a vegetable based motor lube oil for racing applications (smells heavenly)

All oils, eg single weight shell rotella, are not pure, but blends.

The problem starts when the marketing guys get hold of the product, and start making all sorts of claims, one says "hey this lowers friction" and the others say "well hell, so do ours" and there you go, which is why you get to a place where Toyota now market (NOT make, MARKET) their own ATF, Honda market their own ATF, MB market their own ATFs.

Dex3 wasn't a marketing tool, it was a specification, from before the days when motor oils became a bloody fashion accessory and design statement about the driver.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 11-03-2010, 08:52 AM
Olivier's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 570
Quote:
Originally Posted by layback40 View Post
I am concerned by your belief in ATF causing the problem, it was in trouble before you added it. I dont believe the problem would not have developed as it has without the ATF. .
No, the car was fine before the ATF, all good, I just wanted to maintain the fuel system and keep it clean.
Defenitly all was OK before the ATF.


Quote:
Originally Posted by layback40 View Post
Alternatively take the car to a competent MB mechanic & pay him to fix it for you. .
I might do in a wee while, but before I like to see if there is anything I can do to rectifie the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by layback40 View Post
I'll do , cheers.



Quote:
Originally Posted by layback40 View Post
There are several people on this forum who believe that what you are seeing is nothing more than a version of "death in a jug". That is why you are not getting swamped with suggestions. There are emails going around suggesting not to get involved.
What is "death in a jug"?
You lost me there about the email going around Not been involve

Cheers.
Olivier
__________________
E300TD year 2000. RUSTY SOLD
cost a fortune to maintain on the road
but run well on WVO
Second Merc died due to corrosion ( NOT rust) How can mercedes get away with that for so long?
Third lasted a month then went away...
Fourth now... Corroded too...
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 11-03-2010, 09:04 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by layback40 View Post

There are several people on this forum who believe that what you are seeing is nothing more than a version of "death in a jug". That is why you are not getting swamped with suggestions. There are emails going around suggesting not to get involved.

Agreed.

Not because there is any inherent "problem" with using WVO as a fuel per se.

I have seen many WVO installations that work extremely well, without exception, all of them either used completely separate systems (second injector, second IP, second filtration system, second set of supply and return lines) or had quite complex and expensive purging systems, that took 10 minutes to purge the entire fuel system prior to switchover.

Notably the dual systems were all in stationary engines (gen sets etc) and purging systems were all on boats with auxiliary power systems to power the purge cycle.

As I type this there are 3 less than 5 year old common rail MB diesels in the local dealership having complete new fuel systems installed under warranty because of a problem at a local fuel station that sold both B90 bio-diesel and dino, and incorrectly labelled the pumps.... and this is commercially made B90, not WVO.

I have seen the insides of an CAV in line IP and combustion chambers from an old BMC that was run on WVO for 4 years, with mega filtration, dual fuel system, one of these quite expensive kits, I'd seen these exact same components around 10 years ago as it used to be owned by a friend.

The IP was scrap.

I keep telling people this, I haven't paid more than a thousand bucks for any car I have bought in the last 10 years, I paid just about 1,000 US for the current W124, even so, I would not even consider running them on WVO.

I buy pump diesel which is B5, eg 5% commercial bio-diesel blended with 95% dino-diesel.

I'd have no qualms running home heating oil and atf before I'd even consider WVO.

I wouldn;t even put food grade new oil in the tank.

And this is a 1,000 buck vehicle.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 11-03-2010, 09:10 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: UK
Posts: 331
Quote:
Originally Posted by Olivier View Post
No, the car was fine before the ATF, all good, I just wanted to maintain the fuel system and keep it clean.
Defenitly all was OK before the ATF.

ATF (esp the Dex2 ATF you used) contains nothing but oil (eg fuel) and fairly high doses of detergents and anti-foaming agents.

Adding ATF to your fuel tank, and removing the tank primary filter, has caused the detergent to start shifting those years of junk and putting it into solution.

the way the system is designed, the ONLY PLACE IT CAN GO is > lift pump > injection pump > injectors

Your only practical solution is to strip and clean the ENTIRE fuel system, all filters, all lines, all injectors, injection pump, everything, off the vehicle, replace all the factory filtration systems, and start again.

Every other alternative will see you effecting temporary partial cures and periods of remission, with regular recurrences of problems.

Basically you have arrived at the point where the degradation of the system accelerates towards the scrap yard. You have used up all the free ride you had from what was a very high quality fuel injection system being over engineered for the application in hand.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 11-03-2010, 09:26 AM
Olivier's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 570
Then we have the same view, something got un-clogged and been pushed in the IP blocking someting.
The tank as been cleaned the first time I pull the strainer out. The second time it was clogged was because of some fibers from my filters. I am mre carefull now and the pre filter does catch any little bits. The main filter does the rest. The rest is clean.
The injectors have been clean not long ago, I should have say, as the pop pressure has been reduse to see if any performances could have been gained doing tho.
The bother is in the pump. Look like its going to be taken out...
I would like to know more about the lift pump tho, it could be an easier solution if it just need replacing.
Cheers.
__________________
E300TD year 2000. RUSTY SOLD
cost a fortune to maintain on the road
but run well on WVO
Second Merc died due to corrosion ( NOT rust) How can mercedes get away with that for so long?
Third lasted a month then went away...
Fourth now... Corroded too...
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 11-03-2010, 09:29 AM
babymog's Avatar
Loose Cannon - No Balls
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Northeast Indiana
Posts: 10,765
Quote:
Originally Posted by Olivier View Post
No, the car was fine before the ATF, all good, I just wanted to maintain the fuel system and keep it clean.
Defenitly all was OK before the ATF.
I'd like to make the point that the engine exhibited no symptoms before the ATF, which is not conclusive proof that there was no problem, just that if there was, it had not yet manifested itself in symptoms.

It could be that the ATF purge caused the problem to change so that it then had symptoms, ex: moving crud from the tank to more sensitive components, it could be that the ATF reacted with something in your fuel cocktail, it could be a coincidence, it could be that you knocked the line off of the switchover valve.

The whole WVO thing is a debate, and even among those who believe in and use WVO heavily, most will tell you that it can be done wrong and frequently is. I have two neighbors successfully running WVO in 617/603/606 cars, successfully yes, but I'm not that motivated as the local pumps are quick and easy for D2. ATF use as a cleaner is also debated, but in my opinion and experience, a quick purge with it (I use it to prime fuel filters after a change) does no harm to the injection pump, much safer than Diesel Purge (this ought to start something) which is largely solvents without the lubricity necessary, ...

Have you run a line directly from the intake plenum to the ALDA yet to eliminate the switchover valve? Checked that air can pass into this line from the plenum fitting? Pressurized the ALDA to see if the diaphragm is ruptured (or simply removed the ALDA as a test)? When the answer is yes, you have moved forward in eliminating another possible source and this discussion can go from SWAGs to diagnoses.

I think that you're making a mistake running without a fuel tank strainer also, but that is your choice.
__________________

Gone to the dark side

- Jeff
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 11-03-2010, 09:46 AM
Olivier's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 570
ALDA as been mentionned here before by Wunter and I have asked where it was? I thought I had no ALDA on the pump. If I got one I could see if I can remove it ot test it.
Knocked the line of the switch over valve? I am lost there too? What is the switch over valve? Where?
Sorry but again its new to me and I learn as I go along.
Cheers.
Olivier
__________________
E300TD year 2000. RUSTY SOLD
cost a fortune to maintain on the road
but run well on WVO
Second Merc died due to corrosion ( NOT rust) How can mercedes get away with that for so long?
Third lasted a month then went away...
Fourth now... Corroded too...
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 11-03-2010, 09:56 AM
babymog's Avatar
Loose Cannon - No Balls
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Northeast Indiana
Posts: 10,765
Much of this can be solved by searching switchover valve or ALDA.

All of the 603 turbos have ALDAs, and switchover valves.
__________________

Gone to the dark side

- Jeff
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 11-03-2010, 09:59 AM
Olivier's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 570
Hi Jeff,
I have a 606 , E300 Turbo diesel. Is this applying to me too?
__________________
E300TD year 2000. RUSTY SOLD
cost a fortune to maintain on the road
but run well on WVO
Second Merc died due to corrosion ( NOT rust) How can mercedes get away with that for so long?
Third lasted a month then went away...
Fourth now... Corroded too...
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 11-03-2010, 10:00 AM
layback40's Avatar
Not Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Victoria Australia - down under!!
Posts: 4,023
May I suggest you go back to my original post where I recommended you clean out your tank & fuel lines first. If you dont, you risk having the problem reoccur once you do find a fix. Probably you may not even see the fix before it gives trouble again.
I do believe you have more than just problems with blockages from the crud. What sort of WVO are you using?
To test the lift pump simply take it off & by pressing the plunger manually see if the fuel is pumped effectively.
If you disconnect the fuel line from the tank do you have a good flow of fuel by gravity?
As winter approaches for you, how do you overcome the increased viscosity?
How do you know that there has not been a change in the WVO composition ?

How about taking a few pics of your motor showing us what you have. Just phone camera pics will be fine.

__________________
Grumpy Old Diesel Owners Club group

I no longer question authority, I annoy authority. More effect, less effort....

1967 230-6 auto parts car. rust bucket.
1980 300D now parts car 800k miles
1984 300D 500k miles
1987 250td 160k miles English import
2001 jeep turbo diesel 130k miles
1998 jeep tdi ~ followed me home. Needs a turbo.
1968 Ford F750 truck. 6-354 diesel conversion.
Other toys ~J.D.,Cat & GM ~ mainly earth moving
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On




All times are GMT -4. The time now is 09:14 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2024 Pelican Parts, LLC - Posts may be archived for display on the Peach Parts or Pelican Parts Website -    DMCA Registered Agent Contact Page