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#121
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I agree with what you state. It IS fleet use, these are HD engines, so there are differences. However if we are using HDEOs, the soot loading capacity of the CHEMISTRY, which has a lot to do with the drain interval and the allowable soot condemnation level has a good deal to do with it.
In the end, IMO the basis of determination of condemnation level is viscosity increase, TBN loss (soot and sulfur-bound aromatics are related), and wear metal flags increasing beyond a point (which may or may not be due to soot). There are soot tests that look at wear scars, but usually wear scar tests are a bit synthetic and may not be relevant. It should be clear that UOA must be used incrementally to determine optimal OCI. People should not stray significantly from the manufacturer blindly without extending in small increments and verifying soot level and wear characteristics via UOA. IMO it is safe to say that if wear rates for similar use profiles, similar temperature operation, etc. as the soot loading increases, then the dispersancy is active and sufficient to prevent agglomeration and thus net particle size that could indue scuffing or other types of wear. Cant do things in a vacuum, but at the same time lube technology has changed and the dispersancy characteristics have changed, so we can neither be in a vacuum of assuming that nothing has changed in the last 30 years, when ULSD, oil basestock/additive packages, etc. have all been significant improvements.
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Current Diesels: 1981 240D (73K) 1982 300CD (169k) 1985 190D (169k) 1991 350SD (113k) 1991 350SD (206k) 1991 300D (228k) 1993 300SD (291k) 1993 300D 2.5T (338k) 1996 Dodge Ram CTD (442k) 1996 Dodge Ram CTD (265k) Past Diesels: 1983 300D (228K) 1985 300D (233K) |
#122
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To revive on old thread....I wonder if the FSS provides an indirect way of ascertaining acceptable soot levels according to MB (at least on certain engines).
In my 98 E300, the FSS had me on track for an oil change at 14,900. When I changed the oil at 8,200 miles, the soot level was 0.8%. That works out to just under 1.5% at the recommended service interval. So, at least on an OM606, 1.5% would seem to be fine (at least according to Mercedes).
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14 E250 Bluetec "Sinclair", Palladium Silver on Black, 153k miles 06 E320 CDI "Rutherford", Black on Tan, 171k mi, Stage 1 tune, tuned TCU 91 300D "Otis", Smoke Silver, 142k mi, wastegate conversion 19 Honda CR-V EX 61k mi Fourteen other MB's owned and sold 1961 Very Tolerant Wife |
#123
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FSS on our (W210) models was found to be inaccurate or unreliable in dictating oil change intervals when using conventional motor oil. You may not be aware of this, but in approximately 2004 or 05, a mailing was done to owners of record of our W210s (and perhaps other MB models - I don't know) stating that MBUSA had lost a Class Action lawsuit as per FSS intervals on oil changes, and the resultant advisory to the owners of these cars was this; we (MBUSA) will completely warrant all labor and parts on these car's engines for a period of 10-years, or 150,000 miles - which ever comes first, if you will start using 100% synthetic motor oil on these cars. (I believe I still have the paperwork on it around here - but you can also look it up on-line.) An owner of a slugged-up W210 engine using conventional motor oil sued MB and won, is why the offer came down as it did. It certainly gave me an incentive to keep the car for at least 10-years total time ownership because of the new warranty period by MB. Last edited by Skid Row Joe; 07-03-2014 at 02:16 PM. |
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My Dad has had a 1980 300SD since 1986, we run 10k miles oil change intervals on it, swap the oil filter half way. It works. The odometer stopped working 15 years ago at 400k miles, yes it has some miles on it and no engine issues. Engine was swapped once at 300k due to oil leaks and low power, not since. We judge our distance based on fill ups. Switched to syn oil way back in the mid 90s when it became popular and available in our region at most retailers. This is a non EGR engine.
Never had an oil analysis, so I can't add much to the discussion, however I doubt oil related engine failures are something we need to worry about! I would rather spend the money from analysis on maintenance and repairs/upgrades. It really doesn't matter if the oil gets better with time (better additives), your engine is getting worse as time passes and allowing more soot into the oil making things worse. Bypass oil filters do help, they can keep the oil clean (not black). Several sellers claim lifetime oil changes with data-not something I know anything about. Someday I want to install them on my vehicles and see. Having a large sump also a big difference too. The funny thing is I have found most people who worry so much about all this stuff never keep their car long enough to have mattered anyways, meaning they sell the car off long before any benefits were noticed from the short OCI or extra care. Keeping something for decades you will notice long term maintenance benefits, ten years unlikely. |
#125
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Saved this info from an October, 2002 message:
Tech Tip Use of non-synthetic oil in FSS equipped cars up through March 31, 2001. A class action law suit has been adjudicated in the US District Court for the Eastern District of Pennsylvania which affects owners of FSS equipped cars that were first owned, purchased or leased on or before March 31, 2001. In this court case MBUSA has agreed to the following; 1. MBUSA will cover engine damage caused by the use of API SH or SJ conventional motor oil in it's 1998, 1999, 2000 and up to March 31, 2001 Mercedes-Benz vehicles equipped with FSS within the US, Puerto Rico and any US Territory. 2. This warranty coverage will extend up to 150,000 miles or ten years from the date of original purchase or lease (whichever occurs first). 3. Warranty coverage shall be under the terms of the original warranty and/or any extended warranty purchased from MBUSA 4. Such coverage shall survive the sale or transfer of the vehicle to a new owner. 5. MBUSA encourages its dealers to provide loaner cars. 6. If requested by any class member, MBUSA will review previous engine repair performed by a Mercedes-Benz dealer for certain specific types of damage that might relate to the use of SH or SJ API rated oils and if determined that the applicable repair falls under this class action, MBUSA shall reimburse the cost of said repairs.
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Len '59 220S Cabriolet-SOLD and living happily in Malta '83 240D 351,500 miles original owner-SOLD '88 560SL 41,000 miles - totaled and parted out https://sites.google.com/site/mercedesstuff/home '99 E300 turbo 227,500 miles '03 SLK320 40,000 miles - gave to my daughter '14 Smart electric coupe 28,500 miles '14 Smart electric cabriolet 28,500 miles '15 Smart electric coupe 28,000 miles |
#126
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FWIW here is how the VW FSS system works:
http://www.volkspage.net/technik/ssp/ssp/SSP_224.pdf You'll see that the system take into account miles, fuel used, and oil temp. -J
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1991 350SDL. 230,000 miles (new motor @ 150,000). Blown head gasket Tesla Model 3. 205,000 miles. Been to 48 states! Past: A fleet of VW TDIs.... including a V10,a Dieselgate Passat, and 2 ECOdiesels. 2014 Cadillac ELR 2013 Fiat 500E. |
#127
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Quote:
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14 E250 Bluetec "Sinclair", Palladium Silver on Black, 153k miles 06 E320 CDI "Rutherford", Black on Tan, 171k mi, Stage 1 tune, tuned TCU 91 300D "Otis", Smoke Silver, 142k mi, wastegate conversion 19 Honda CR-V EX 61k mi Fourteen other MB's owned and sold 1961 Very Tolerant Wife |
#128
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Shertex,
If you do a search on my user ID, 240Joe, you will find many "spirited" threads related to oil change intervals (OCIs) for our old diesels. As you will see, short OCI is a religion to some people. Soot is not a problem with the new diesel rated oils that can keep the soot suspended even with concentrations up to 4 to 6 % soot. If the soot doesn't clump, it can't do harm because it is just too small. If you run a diesel synthetic oil, just changing the filter every year and topping off with that same quality oil is all you need to do. Every other OCI is just a waste of money, but it certainly does seem to make some people happy. |
#129
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Just because an HDEO can handle >4% spot doesn't mean it's appropriate for the older designs with relatively small sumps.
Still, 2% to me is an appropriate max soot condemnation target, and it still allows for a decently extended interval, especially in anything newer than a 616/617.
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Current Diesels: 1981 240D (73K) 1982 300CD (169k) 1985 190D (169k) 1991 350SD (113k) 1991 350SD (206k) 1991 300D (228k) 1993 300SD (291k) 1993 300D 2.5T (338k) 1996 Dodge Ram CTD (442k) 1996 Dodge Ram CTD (265k) Past Diesels: 1983 300D (228K) 1985 300D (233K) |
#130
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The 2% soot rule was determined back when that was the capability of the oil.
It is as useful now as the 3000 mile OCI rule. Back when OCIs were being vigorously debated on this forum, I asked if anyone could show me a case where one of our diesels lost an engine because of extended OCI. Not one was produced. There are many, many things that will take these cars off the road. Extending the OCI is not one of them. You are wasting your money if you do anything other than changing the filter and making sure you always have the appropriate amount of oil in the engine. |
#131
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Quote:
The Bypass Oil Filter also takes care of Particles from other stuff besides Soot. The above I think works regardless of the Oil Change interval.
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84 300D, 82 Volvo 244Gl Diesel Last edited by Diesel911; 07-05-2014 at 10:08 PM. |
#132
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During your absence, I've been accused of being; "240Joe." Now that you've returned to post, these rumors can be put to rest. I am skeptical of not changing conventional motor oil somewhat often because of engine sludging capabilities on an engine's internals, as shown ad nauseum here and elsewhere on-line. I am of the thinking that engines that do sludge up have either been run with low motor oil, or, never changing of the engine filters, or both. What say you, 240Joe? Last edited by Skid Row Joe; 07-06-2014 at 03:20 PM. |
#133
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Answer
Quote:
What happens to soot in fuel supply? To warm up or not to warm up? Poll: How long will you let your diesel idle? Why shouldn't a Mercedes Diesel be left to Idle for long periods. Acceptably Safe Soot Levels: Can Anyone Speak with Authority? Dump Rotella T6 and use Delvac? Dump Rotella T6 and use Delvac? Dump Rotella T6 and use Delvac? .
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ASE Master Mechanic asemastermechanic@juno.com Prototype R&D/testing: Thermal & Aerodynamic System Engineering (TASE) Senior vehicle instrumentation technician. Noise Vibration and Harshness (NVH). Dynamometer. Heat exchanger durability. HV-A/C Climate Control. Vehicle build. Fleet Durability Technical Quality Auditor. Automotive Technical Writer 1985 300SD 1983 300D 1984 190D 2003 Volvo V70 2002 Honda Civic https://www.boldegoist.com/ |
#134
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To make this clear
Dump Rotella T6 and use Delvac?
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By the time you see coolant (milkshake) discolored oil, it is usually a major engine and injection pump rebuild. You are correct, I have run considerably higher, typically, the suggested limit for soot on the old mechanical injection diesel engines was 3-5%. On my personal vehicles 2% soot with 0W-40 synthetic oil is simply indicating oil change needed now. At 9000 miles my worst engine is 1.5%, the others vary between 0.5% and 1% soot load. Please note that: * I tune to the lean side for durability/MPG. * Due to serious low diesel cetane issues I add 4-6 ounces of two stroke oil in every tank of fuel. * Due to serious random fuel quality issues Biobor and StarTron are required frequently (more than 4 times per year). The filters are changed every 3000 miles, they are cheap and easy. If during engine service I suspect contamination, the oil is changed regardless of miles. This is all a matter of choice to me. Dump Rotella T6 and use Delvac? .
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ASE Master Mechanic asemastermechanic@juno.com Prototype R&D/testing: Thermal & Aerodynamic System Engineering (TASE) Senior vehicle instrumentation technician. Noise Vibration and Harshness (NVH). Dynamometer. Heat exchanger durability. HV-A/C Climate Control. Vehicle build. Fleet Durability Technical Quality Auditor. Automotive Technical Writer 1985 300SD 1983 300D 1984 190D 2003 Volvo V70 2002 Honda Civic https://www.boldegoist.com/ |
#135
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So...I guess the answer to the original question is no.
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