Acceptably Safe Soot Levels: Can Anyone Speak with Authority? - Page 9 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

JHZR2 · #**121** 01-01-2011, 09:11 AM

I agree with what you state. It IS fleet use, these are HD engines, so there are differences. However if we are using HDEOs, the soot loading capacity of the CHEMISTRY, which has a lot to do with the drain interval and the allowable soot condemnation level has a good deal to do with it.

In the end, IMO the basis of determination of condemnation level is viscosity increase, TBN loss (soot and sulfur-bound aromatics are related), and wear metal flags increasing beyond a point (which may or may not be due to soot). There are soot tests that look at wear scars, but usually wear scar tests are a bit synthetic and may not be relevant.

It should be clear that UOA must be used incrementally to determine optimal OCI. People should not stray significantly from the manufacturer blindly without extending in small increments and verifying soot level and wear characteristics via UOA. IMO it is safe to say that if wear rates for similar use profiles, similar temperature operation, etc. as the soot loading increases, then the dispersancy is active and sufficient to prevent agglomeration and thus net particle size that could indue scuffing or other types of wear.

Cant do things in a vacuum, but at the same time lube technology has changed and the dispersancy characteristics have changed, so we can neither be in a vacuum of assuming that nothing has changed in the last 30 years, when ULSD, oil basestock/additive packages, etc. have all been significant improvements.

shertex · #**122** 07-02-2014, 07:16 PM

To revive on old thread....I wonder if the FSS provides an indirect way of ascertaining acceptable soot levels according to MB (at least on certain engines).

In my 98 E300, the FSS had me on track for an oil change at 14,900. When I changed the oil at 8,200 miles, the soot level was 0.8%. That works out to just under 1.5% at the recommended service interval. So, at least on an OM606, 1.5% would seem to be fine (at least according to Mercedes).

Skid Row Joe · #**123** 07-02-2014, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shertex

To revive on old thread....I wonder if the FSS provides an indirect way of ascertaining acceptable soot levels according to MB (at least on certain engines).

In my 98 E300, the FSS had me on track for an oil change at 14,900. When I changed the oil at 8,200 miles, the soot level was 0.8%. That works out to just under 1.5% at the recommended service interval. So, at least on an OM606, 1.5% would seem to be fine (at least according to Mercedes).

Don't know if this helps, but if I haven't conveyed this here on-forum previously......

FSS on our (W210) models was found to be inaccurate or unreliable in dictating oil change intervals when using conventional motor oil.

You may not be aware of this, but in approximately 2004 or 05, a mailing was done to owners of record of our W210s (and perhaps other MB models - I don't know) stating that MBUSA had lost a Class Action lawsuit as per FSS intervals on oil changes, and the resultant advisory to the owners of these cars was this; we (MBUSA) will completely warrant all labor and parts on these car's engines for a period of 10-years, or 150,000 miles - which ever comes first, if you will start using 100% synthetic motor oil on these cars. (I believe I still have the paperwork on it around here - but you can also look it up on-line.) An owner of a slugged-up W210 engine using conventional motor oil sued MB and won, is why the offer came down as it did. It certainly gave me an incentive to keep the car for at least 10-years total time ownership because of the new warranty period by MB.

clacker · #**124** 07-03-2014, 09:59 AM

My Dad has had a 1980 300SD since 1986, we run 10k miles oil change intervals on it, swap the oil filter half way. It works. The odometer stopped working 15 years ago at 400k miles, yes it has some miles on it and no engine issues. Engine was swapped once at 300k due to oil leaks and low power, not since. We judge our distance based on fill ups. Switched to syn oil way back in the mid 90s when it became popular and available in our region at most retailers. This is a non EGR engine.
Never had an oil analysis, so I can't add much to the discussion, however I doubt oil related engine failures are something we need to worry about! I would rather spend the money from analysis on maintenance and repairs/upgrades.
It really doesn't matter if the oil gets better with time (better additives), your engine is getting worse as time passes and allowing more soot into the oil making things worse. Bypass oil filters do help, they can keep the oil clean (not black). Several sellers claim lifetime oil changes with data-not something I know anything about. Someday I want to install them on my vehicles and see. Having a large sump also a big difference too.
The funny thing is I have found most people who worry so much about all this stuff never keep their car long enough to have mattered anyways, meaning they sell the car off long before any benefits were noticed from the short OCI or extra care. Keeping something for decades you will notice long term maintenance benefits, ten years unlikely.

sokoloff · #**125** 07-04-2014, 09:54 AM

Saved this info from an October, 2002 message:

Tech Tip

Use of non-synthetic oil in FSS equipped cars up through March 31, 2001.

A class action law suit has been adjudicated in the US District Court for
the Eastern
District of Pennsylvania which affects owners of FSS equipped cars that
were first owned,
purchased or leased on or before March 31, 2001.

In this court case MBUSA has agreed to the following;

1. MBUSA will cover engine damage caused by the use of API SH or SJ
conventional motor oil
in it's 1998, 1999, 2000 and up to March 31, 2001 Mercedes-Benz vehicles
equipped with FSS
within the US, Puerto Rico and any US Territory.
2. This warranty coverage will extend up to 150,000 miles or ten years
from the date of
original purchase or lease (whichever occurs first).
3. Warranty coverage shall be under the terms of the original warranty
and/or any extended
warranty purchased from MBUSA
4. Such coverage shall survive the sale or transfer of the vehicle to a
new owner.
5. MBUSA encourages its dealers to provide loaner cars.
6. If requested by any class member, MBUSA will review previous engine
repair performed by
a Mercedes-Benz dealer for certain specific types of damage that might
relate to the use
of SH or SJ API rated oils and if determined that the applicable repair
falls under this
class action, MBUSA shall reimburse the cost of said repairs.

compu_85 · #**126** 07-04-2014, 10:52 AM

FWIW here is how the VW FSS system works:

http://www.volkspage.net/technik/ssp/ssp/SSP_224.pdf

You'll see that the system take into account miles, fuel used, and oil temp.

-J

shertex · #**127** 07-04-2014, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by compu_85

FWIW here is how the VW FSS system works:

http://www.volkspage.net/technik/ssp/ssp/SSP_224.pdf

You'll see that the system take into account miles, fuel used, and oil temp.

-J

That's interesting....thanks. I had been wondering how the calculations were made....had heard that the gasser version was more sophisticated than the diesel, but nothing really definitive.

240Joe · #**128** 07-05-2014, 04:00 PM

Shertex,

If you do a search on my user ID, 240Joe, you will find many "spirited" threads related to oil change intervals (OCIs) for our old diesels. As you will see, short OCI is a religion to some people.

Soot is not a problem with the new diesel rated oils that can keep the soot suspended even with concentrations up to 4 to 6 % soot. If the soot doesn't clump, it can't do harm because it is just too small.

If you run a diesel synthetic oil, just changing the filter every year and topping off with that same quality oil is all you need to do.

Every other OCI is just a waste of money, but it certainly does seem to make some people happy.

JHZR2 · #**129** 07-05-2014, 04:04 PM

Just because an HDEO can handle >4% spot doesn't mean it's appropriate for the older designs with relatively small sumps.

Still, 2% to me is an appropriate max soot condemnation target, and it still allows for a decently extended interval, especially in anything newer than a 616/617.

240Joe · #**130** 07-05-2014, 04:56 PM

The 2% soot rule was determined back when that was the capability of the oil.

It is as useful now as the 3000 mile OCI rule.

Back when OCIs were being vigorously debated on this forum, I asked if anyone could show me a case where one of our diesels lost an engine because of extended OCI. Not one was produced.

There are many, many things that will take these cars off the road. Extending the OCI is not one of them. You are wasting your money if you do anything other than changing the filter and making sure you always have the appropriate amount of oil in the engine.

Diesel911 · #**131** 07-05-2014, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shertex

First off, don't be put off by the title....I don't mean to exclude those who CAN'T speak with authority (for then I would have to exclude myself).

Everyone agrees that AGGLOMERATED (BTW, a great vocabulary word to toss out in casual conversation... "You kids need to stay together and agglomerate so I can keep an eye on you.") soot is bad/evil and must be avoided. This, as far as I can tell, is a function of the quality of the oil. Delvac 1, for example, can handle at least 4% before agglomeration (clumping) occurs.

However, apparently even NON-AGGLOMERATED soot can cause damage (this on the authority of one of the guys in the lab that did my oil analysis).

The question is: what level, for all practical purposes, is perfectly safe?

At least Marshall Booth (well nigh the patron saint of all things Mercedes diesel) used the figure of 2%....and I think Mercedes published that figure at one point, but now I'm not sure. So my operating assumption has been that, as long as I'm well under 2%, I am, oil wise, doing what I can to maximize my engine's longevity.

But, there appears to be a school of thought that ANY amount of soot is harmful and that, therefore, it should not be allowed to rise above x%. I've seen 1% as the safe threshold. But where does that come from? And how is it not arbitrary? Why not 0.5% or 1.2%? If ANY amount is harmful, then why shouldn't we change our oil every 1500 miles or whatever? I like to save money as much as the next guy, but I'm really willing to spend whatever I have to on oil and filters to ensure extremely long engine life.

Honestly: If thought that changing my oil every 1,000 miles would promote engine longevity, I would do it. But I have no reason to believe that.

Currently, my plan has been 10,000 mile drain intervals, which would equate to about 1.4% soot. If that sounds like a risky plan, could someone please explain to me why it is risky?

Thanks in advance for contributing to the discussion and helping me to grow in my understanding of these things.

My own thoughts are that your going to have Soot and if it can cause anything adverse a good way to prevent that is to add on a Bypass Oil Filter to keep the Soot Particle size at the smallest end of the spectrum where they can do the least damage.

The Bypass Oil Filter also takes care of Particles from other stuff besides Soot.

The above I think works regardless of the Oil Change interval.

Skid Row Joe · #**132** 07-06-2014, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 240Joe

The 2% soot rule was determined back when that was the capability of the oil.

It is as useful now as the 3000 mile OCI rule.

Back when OCIs were being vigorously debated on this forum, I asked if anyone could show me a case where one of our diesels lost an engine because of extended OCI. Not one was produced.

There are many, many things that will take these cars off the road. Extending the OCI is not one of them. You are wasting your money if you do anything other than changing the filter and making sure you always have the appropriate amount of oil in the engine.

Great to have you back, 240Joe!

During your absence, I've been accused of being; "240Joe." Now that you've returned to post, these rumors can be put to rest.

I am skeptical of not changing conventional motor oil somewhat often because of engine sludging capabilities on an engine's internals, as shown ad nauseum here and elsewhere on-line.

I am of the thinking that engines that do sludge up have either been run with low motor oil, or, never changing of the engine filters, or both.

What say you, 240Joe?

whunter · #**133** 07-06-2014, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shertex

First off, don't be put off by the title....I don't mean to exclude those who CAN'T speak with authority (for then I would have to exclude myself).

Everyone agrees that AGGLOMERATED (BTW, a great vocabulary word to toss out in casual conversation... "You kids need to stay together and agglomerate so I can keep an eye on you.") soot is bad/evil and must be avoided. This, as far as I can tell, is a function of the quality of the oil. Delvac 1, for example, can handle at least 4% before agglomeration (clumping) occurs.

However, apparently even NON-AGGLOMERATED soot can cause damage (this on the authority of one of the guys in the lab that did my oil analysis).

The question is: what level, for all practical purposes, is perfectly safe?

At least Marshall Booth (well nigh the patron saint of all things Mercedes diesel) used the figure of 2%....and I think Mercedes published that figure at one point, but now I'm not sure. So my operating assumption has been that, as long as I'm well under 2%, I am, oil wise, doing what I can to maximize my engine's longevity.

But, there appears to be a school of thought that ANY amount of soot is harmful and that, therefore, it should not be allowed to rise above x%. I've seen 1% as the safe threshold. But where does that come from? And how is it not arbitrary? Why not 0.5% or 1.2%? If ANY amount is harmful, then why shouldn't we change our oil every 1500 miles or whatever? I like to save money as much as the next guy, but I'm really willing to spend whatever I have to on oil and filters to ensure extremely long engine life.

Honestly: If thought that changing my oil every 1,000 miles would promote engine longevity, I would do it. But I have no reason to believe that.

Currently, my plan has been 10,000 mile drain intervals, which would equate to about 1.4% soot. If that sounds like a risky plan, could someone please explain to me why it is risky?

Thanks in advance for contributing to the discussion and helping me to grow in my understanding of these things.

Here is data on this topic.

What happens to soot in fuel supply?

To warm up or not to warm up?

Poll: How long will you let your diesel idle?

Why shouldn't a Mercedes Diesel be left to Idle for long periods.

Acceptably Safe Soot Levels: Can Anyone Speak with Authority?

Dump Rotella T6 and use Delvac?

Dump Rotella T6 and use Delvac?

Dump Rotella T6 and use Delvac?

.

whunter · #**134** 07-06-2014, 01:16 AM

Dump Rotella T6 and use Delvac?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Carlton

What's the soot level at 9000 on a 617?

Do you go 9000 on the filter?

My own decision is 5000 based upon a 1% soot limit. Apparently you are OK with higher?

The critical factor for me is any engine coolant in the oil, that kills more engines than soot ever will.
By the time you see coolant (milkshake) discolored oil, it is usually a major engine and injection pump rebuild.

You are correct, I have run considerably higher, typically, the suggested limit for soot on the old mechanical injection diesel engines was 3-5%.

On my personal vehicles 2% soot with 0W-40 synthetic oil is simply indicating oil change needed now.

At 9000 miles my worst engine is 1.5%, the others vary between 0.5% and 1% soot load.

Please note that:
* I tune to the lean side for durability/MPG.
* Due to serious low diesel cetane issues I add 4-6 ounces of two stroke oil in every tank of fuel.
* Due to serious random fuel quality issues Biobor and StarTron are required frequently (more than 4 times per year).

The filters are changed every 3000 miles, they are cheap and easy.
If during engine service I suspect contamination, the oil is changed regardless of miles.
This is all a matter of choice to me.

Dump Rotella T6 and use Delvac?
.

Mxfrank · #**135** 07-06-2014, 08:10 AM

So...I guess the answer to the original question is no.