Another Alignment Saga - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

Tpawlik · #1 01-04-2011, 05:48 PM

In the fall I replaced the rear subframe mounts, diff. mounts, sway bar links and Bilstein Comfort shocks. Before the snow started flying I bought new tires, Cooper Lifeliner, never had Cooper tires, but they are very quiet and are really good in the snow. So,the rear was tight but the front end was a little loose. So, I need to get an alignment. Against the advice of some of you guys, I let the wizard at NTB convince me that, yes, they really could align my car. Now, it is worse. The slightest breeze shoves the car all over the road above 65 mph. I take it back and tell them they need to try again.
This time I hand them the alignment specs from the FSM. The three guys behind the counter go into a huddle. They are pointing at the alignment specs and looking very agitated. One guy finally comes back to me and says that they cannot align my car. They can only set the Toe. Apparently, an alignment at NTB is Toe only.
So, I take the car to, dare I say it, to a Firedstone store! The Firestone store comes well recommended by George Gantner, a good indy in my area. George says they can do it. We send lot's of cars there. Cost $70.00. So, I make an appointment for an alignment and take the car there today. I give them the specs. They drive the car before the alignment. They ask me what problems I am having. I tell them I have no problems other than the car is all over ther road. They come back in ten minutes and say the front suspension looked good, as did George. They made very minor adjustments and said that they were so close to spec that getting all the numbers in the Green would not improve the handling? The car is better but nowhere as solid feeling as it should. They only charged me for an alignment check. $25 plus tax.
The Left Front Caster # is 9.3 degrees
Attached are the results. Please give me your opinions on the results, before I breakdown and take it to the dealer.

winmutt · #2 01-04-2011, 06:05 PM

Take it to the pros:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=Streetsboro,+OH&daddr=18122+Rockside+Road,+Bedford,+OH+44146+(Mercedes-Benz+of+Bedford)&hl=en&geocode=FbdCdQIdbMIm-ynDdeYe1CIxiDGg4ZXmIA467Q%3BFYDFdwIdwpoj-yFGXyKB5YKNyw&gl=us&mra=ls&sll=41.253032,-81.359253&sspn=1.521792,3.56781&ie=UTF8&ll=41.318302,-81.449547&spn=0.196484,0.445976&t=h&z=12

bbboomer · #3 01-04-2011, 06:12 PM

Generally, wandering would be related to the caster adjustment or excessively worn tie rods etc.
From the printout I don't think your caster is off enough to cause your problem.
You did say you replaced the rear suspension bushings etc. That combined with your front suspension wear could be your problem.
You need to make sure the rear is in proper alignment too.

Junkman · #4 01-04-2011, 06:27 PM

What tire pressure are you running? My truck wandered dangerously until tire pressure was dropped from loaded specs to unloaded.

babymog · #5 01-04-2011, 07:04 PM

Crappy tires can handle crappy, so as Junkman says be sure of the size and inflation. Also, the 300D is heavier than most cars wearing 195s, could be the load rating is insufficient (check the owner's manual).

Have you checked the other suspension components? Any weak link will produce a problem. I read that you replaced the subframe mounts and swaybar links, what about the other links in the rear? The front? Lower wheel carriers are also notorious in the rear, are they worn/loose? How about front wheel bearings, steering box, strut mounts, ... check EVERYTHING for cracking/looseness/wear as the suspension will not be buttoned down properly and the wind (and ruts) will find the hidden play.

Did the alighment shop use a spreader bar? The proper procedure is to use a spreader bar to exert (IIRC 24#) pressure forcing a bit of toe-out. Me, I dial in a touch of toe-in to give me the solid feel I want, looks like you have some static toe-out and if that is with no spreader bar, and with some play, you're going to be chasing it all over the road.

Last, does it handle differently under power? That too would lead me to believe that it is in the rear suspension, not the front. Really hard to chase it down until all play is out of both ends though.

Tpawlik · #6 01-05-2011, 08:57 AM

I forgot to list new rear LCA's. The remaining links in the rear are newer by the PO and tight. It used to move right and left with the throttle until I rebuilt the rear suspension. I also replaced the front wheel bearings and adjusted them with a dial indicator. The tire pressure is set per the tag on the door jamb, 29 front, 35 rear. I keep thinking something up front must be worn out, but three shops have looked at the front end and none have tried to sell me any parts or said that worn parts would prevent an alignment. The steering dampener up front is newer by the PO. I have less than an 1" of movement in the steering wheel. They did not use a spreader bar.

Thanks for everyones input. Next stop is Mercedes Benz of Bedford, OH. I will be shocked if they don't want to rebuild the entire car.

winmutt · #7 01-05-2011, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tpawlik

I will be shocked if they don't want to rebuild the entire car.

No but they will give you a list of what needs to be replaced. $120 for an alignment and a dealership diag is cheap IMO. They will tell you everything that *should* be replaced.

Tpawlik · #8 01-05-2011, 10:11 AM

I agree, that it is a necessary evil. I have some history with this dealer. I took my 95 E420 there once for an estimate to replace the motor mounts. The engine was rocking a little. They said the A/C system needed to be evacuated and tested for $1,200. The A/C was working perfectly. I told them no thanks and took the car to an indy who replaced the motor mounts. Engine rocking ceased. A/C still work good too.

babymog · #9 01-05-2011, 01:56 PM

Might just be play in the steering box. Good luck.

pj67coll · #10 01-05-2011, 03:04 PM

Is your steering box tightly mounted to the chassis box section? Bolts torqued to spec etc?

- Peter.

barry123400 · #11 01-05-2011, 03:05 PM

Anybody check the steering box coupling? It may have play under load. Judging the one percent steering wheel movement is usually with no load. Toe out as already mentioned can be a major issue. It sometimes takes a pry bar to find movement in a suspension system.

Had a car with seized lower ball joint awhile ago. While not totally seized but very,very stiff it did effect things. Three alignment shops missed it. It was the issue.

Junkman · #12 01-05-2011, 03:20 PM

I think it is not alignment because the numbers line up. I fought the same thing with my diesel Ram which is known for having steering problems. Usually center of spec range works so it is something else. Also, 3 shops would have been willing to install parts.

I suggest taking it someplace where you can examine while on a lift that lifts from the wheels. You want to pry on parts looking for unexpected movement. Everything should be torqued with no movement.

Have someone in the car turn the steering wheel while it is on the rack & see what moves that shouldn't. If you have power steering, move steering with engine on and off. You want to check all connections from wheel bearings to the connection on the frame. Include steering shaft to the road wheels. Please report findings.

Tpawlik · #13 01-05-2011, 03:30 PM

The indy that I took the car to for replacing the right rear wheel bearing, went over the front suspension pretty thoroughly. The only thing he found was a torn boot. I think it was on a tie rod. He said it felt OK but should be changed in the spring.
I have not checked the steering box connection to the chassis or the flex coupling.
I will check both before I take it to the dealer.

babymog · #14 01-05-2011, 04:12 PM

Find a way to load the front wheels/tires with about 24# toe-out. Line one up with the rear tires visually, see how the other looks. If you can visually identify toe-out so that the tire face lines up with a point inside of the rear tire outside, you have a toe problem under load. THIS is a problem, there might be others. The fact that the toe was not set with a spreader bar tells me that your alignment is worthless, there must be a spreader/pre-load to set it properly. I set mine myself, have been doing this for years, but still start with a professional alignment for a baseline. Toe-out and play in the steering are hard to tell apart.

Your ball-joints are new?

You can use wood cut to length, a jack, a vice-grip quick-grip with the movable jaw backward, whatever it takes to put some outward pressure on the front tires.

69shovlhed · #15 01-05-2011, 10:28 PM

if you bought an alignment from ntb, it is gauranteed at all ntb's. take it to a different ntb that isn't run by a douche bag and has a mechanic that isn't a retard. they should have a good alignment machine; any competent mechanic will figure out the problem. if he's a decent person he will want to get it right cause of pride in workmanship.