Hybrid VS MB W123 - Page 2 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

rscurtis · #16 01-22-2011, 08:27 PM

Yes. He used to promote it while driving around in his Hummer. To his credit, I believe it was the diesel version.

martureo · #17 01-22-2011, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by josha37

I believe you have made a msitake, Electric motors make 100% of there available torque as soon as they start to turn.

I said electric CARS not electric MOTORS, the Clarity has an electric motor.[quote] Just because prius's are lame does not make hybrids useless. [quote]Actually it does. Unless of course you're claiming that the Lexus Hybrids don't suck.

Quote:

Check out the volt the electric motors spit out the equvilant of 150hp which just so happens to be equal to the four cylinder na gas engines that are available.

And what happens when you run out of electricity? How long does it take to "fill" it up again? What happens in the desert when you run out? Can you just go to the nearest station with a big electric jerry can?

Quote:

Another good example are the tesla road cars very fast and all electric.

What is the range of a Tesla? I've got an even better question, what is the cost of a Tesla?

I'm saying that in the long run Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles allow a seamless
adaptation to a non petroleum fueled vehicle series. Yes, it is a packaging of energy and not an energy source, I never claimed that it would be. But Hybrids don't make a big enough of an impact and anyone who actually likes cars shouldn't buy one (except for the 911 hybrid). Electric only cars are good on paper and good in reality if you only lived in the city. You either have a slow electric that can't get out of it's way and takes 8 hours to charge or you have a fast electric that runs out of energy after an hour or so.

Hydrogen automotives is the way. Production of Hydrogen can be handled later.

busman1965 · #18 01-22-2011, 08:53 PM

I don't get the hype with the hybrids, the old 1980's VW Rabbit Diesels got better mileage than the modern hybrids, how can the hybrid be an improvement? Heck, my old Citroen 2CV got 50+mpg on a 2 cylinder 602cc engine, and it was fun to drive. Also it cost less to make either of those cars, than the battery for a hybird costs.

martureo · #19 01-22-2011, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rscurtis

Hydrogen is a net loss by the time you get to the end use, which is presumably a fuel cell. It is not an energy source, it is a storage medium just like a battery. As battery technology improves, H2 will become less attractive as an option.

"As battery techology improves" yeah right. We will still have the problem of not enough, not soon enough. Hydrogen is a better fit for the country in terms of energy storage in automobiles.

Quote:

There is no energy benefit to producing H2 from electrolysis or natural gas when you consider that energy from coal will be required for the former, and the latter is a good engine fuel just as it is.

So those will be the only two sources forever? You say that battery technology will improve, are you saying that Hydrogen technology can't?

Quote:

It is nothing more than a "feel good" idea promoted by people who didn't pay attention in science class when they were in school.

Is that an ad hominem attack? It sure seemed like one.

To be quite frank I am a mechanical engineer, and I did pay attention in science class. So unless you can come up with a better energy storage medium than "fantastic batteries that will exist soon" then Hydrogen fuel cells offer the best solution. As it stands now not a single Hybrid or electric vehicle is viable on a national level.

Quote:

Don't hold your breath while waiting for ex-governor Arnie's "hydrogen highway" to take shape.

California can sink into the Pacific for all I care.

martureo · #20 01-22-2011, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by busman1965

I don't get the hype with the hybrids, the old 1980's VW Rabbit Diesels got better mileage than the modern hybrids, how can the hybrid be an improvement? Heck, my old Citroen 2CV got 50+mpg on a 2 cylinder 602cc engine, and it was fun to drive. Also it cost less to make either of those cars, than the battery for a hybird costs.

Because hybrids are a "feel good" solution. It seems better because it's a hybrid, but it's a band-aid on sliced artery. Hybrids don't stop the consumption of limited petroleum enough.

I wish that the US would start selling high MPG diesels and scrap all the hybrids until we can come up with a viable non-petroleum fueled vehicle.

#21 01-22-2011, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martureo

I wish that the US would start selling high MPG diesels and scrap all the hybrids until we can come up with a viable non-petroleum fueled vehicle.

Would you pay a several $1000 premium to buy a diesel that gets 30-40% better mileage when diesel fuel cost more than premium gasoline?

josha37 · #22 01-22-2011, 09:22 PM

Ok so after you split my post up what part of that made you feel smart? You referenced my part of the post about the volt then made a joke about jerry cans, did you forget about the volts electric onboard generator? so yes just take your jerry can down and fill'er up and get back on the road. http://www.teslamotors.com/ or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster and spend a couple minutes there, their cars will go 300 miles on a charge and do 0-60 in 5.5 secs (just grabbed the first one i saw) yea that sounds like a terd'y ol electric car. And you said electric cars not electric motors but hybrids are driven by electric motors so what is the point? a electric motor in a hybrid differs little than the electric motor running the fan in you computer get your facts straight. yea and non petrolium solution? diesel is a petrolium distillate...

martureo · #23 01-22-2011, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig

Would you pay a several $1000 premium to buy a diesel that gets 30-40% better mileage when diesel fuel cost more than premium gasoline?

Yes. Diesel isn't more than a few cents higher than Premium and sometimes it's cheaper (I know because my wife's car uses Premium). You can also think of it as energy, diesel has more energy than gasoline per gallon. Also diesels tend to be more reliable engines due to the robust nature of the design. Plus the added knowledge that I know I'm using less petroleum would let me feel better. And I just like diesels better.

I think the EPA is stupid on diesel, it seems like diesel has the same bad rap with them that it had in the 1970s.

martureo · #24 01-22-2011, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by josha37

Ok so after you split my post up what part of that made you feel smart?

I did it so the post is easier to read. It's a novel idea though...

Quote:

You referenced my part of the post about the volt then made a joke about jerry cans, did you forget about the volts electric onboard generator? so yes just take your jerry can down and fill'er up and get back on the road.

Didn't know that, but it still seems idiotic.

Quote:

http://www.teslamotors.com/ or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Roadster and spend a couple minutes there, their cars will go 300 miles on a charge and do 0-60 in 5.5 secs (just grabbed the first one i saw) yea that sounds like a terd'y ol electric car. And you said electric cars not electric motors but hybrids are driven by electric motors so what is the point?

Sorry, you're an idiot or you didn't bother perusing my post.

What I said was that hybrids suck, they don't make enough of a dent in the petroleum consumption and they are costly to make and maintain.

I also said that electric only cars suck because you either have the Tesla (fast but take too long to charge), or the Volt which is just a little tiny thing with a generator.

Sure the Tesla could replace track cars for the rich and the volt would work well for the teenager or the guy who lives in town. But what about all the other full size sedans, pickups, minivans and buses out there? Will the Tesla and Volt replace them? I don't think so. Electric only cars are a novelty at this point. Hydrogen fuel cells offer a better option for the entire automotive industry.[/quote] a electric motor in a hybrid differs little than the electric motor running the fan in you computer get your facts straight.[/quote]When have I said any different. You really don't read well.

Quote:

yea and non petrolium solution? diesel is a petrolium distillate...

I never said diesel was a "non petroleum solution", you said I did. But what else can I expect for someone with no reading comprehension?

EDIT: Oh btw, what was the price on the Tesla? Thats right over $100k!!! Sounds perfect for every American!

strelnik · #25 01-22-2011, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ashedd

I am perfectly comfortable driving my old cars... I HATE car payments.

But when you ride in a friends brand new car it makes you wonder if your doing the right thing. Practical and functional only get you so far.

I went to the auto show a few weeks ago. My friend and I were looking at 2011 Kia's with leather interior and, my friends favorite, HID headlights. Then when it comes time to leave we get in to my '92 400E... still smells like leather when we get in. I doubt a KIA can do that after 20 years.

I actually doubt a KIA would still run after 20 years.

Let's see.... my last car payments were $438 a month for a new mustang GT.

X2

Besides, Now Mercedes will have a DIESEL + electric car coming out. Peugot's 3008 is coming out soon, also.
Wanna bet you couldn't survive with a 225 HP turbo -diesel in futuristic America?

Maybe everywhere except California, but if they are not back on their feet in 20 years, it prolly won't make a difference.

By then I may downscale and live in a warmer state. Make my own BD in a shed, and be happy!

#26 01-22-2011, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martureo

Yes. Diesel isn't more than a few cents higher than Premium and sometimes it's cheaper (I know because my wife's car uses Premium). You can also think of it as energy, diesel has more energy than gasoline per gallon. Also diesels tend to be more reliable engines due to the robust nature of the design. Plus the added knowledge that I know I'm using less petroleum would let me feel better. And I just like diesels better.

I think the EPA is stupid on diesel, it seems like diesel has the same bad rap with them that it had in the 1970s.

I like diesels too, but today I would probably buy a newer gasser instead of a newer diesel (as I recently did). I understand the physics, but there isn't enough cost savings in fuel to justify the capital difference in buying the diesel. I don't know if current diesel engines are more reliable than current gassers or not; but due to the complexity of the rest of the car, I wouldn't keep either one long enough to find out anyway. If you want to encourage americans to buy diesels, make the price of gasoline at least $1/gallon higher than diesel fuel.

josha37 · #27 01-22-2011, 11:10 PM

Silverado hybrid, tahoe hybrid, and volt just to name a few that already exist and that is just from gm mercedes has hybrids so does porsche toyota and ford, Hybrids are here wether they fit into your hydrogen theories or not. Hybrid tech might not be the answer but it is a step in the right directions with full size trucks getting 22 mpg with 330 hp (another slow hybrid rig im sure) and the volts 120 mpg and 150hp with a range of 300 miles inbetween gas fill ups, which also comftorably runs 4 around (sounds like something for every teenager if you ask me). If the price of the tesla bothers you so much (you can get them for under $80k) i would hate to see your reaction to a new benz's price that is a little closer to the american budget right? wrong forum to whine about cost in dont ya think? As soon as hydrogen starts making a difference ill start careing otherwise stop driving your car your wasting all my fossil fuel.

edit: please dont respond to this, im tired of argueing with your simple ass.

Mark DiSilvestro · #28 01-23-2011, 12:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by busman1965

I don't get the hype with the hybrids, the old 1980's VW Rabbit Diesels got better mileage than the modern hybrids, how can the hybrid be an improvement? Heck, my old Citroen 2CV got 50+mpg on a 2 cylinder 602cc engine, and it was fun to drive. Also it cost less to make either of those cars, than the battery for a hybird costs.

Yes, but so far as new cars are concerned, Big Brother has stepped in and legislated simple, economical cars, like my 240D and your Citroen, out of existence. Today we must have multiple airbags with seatbelt pretensioners, antilock-stability controls, OBDII electronic engine management, along with all the required onboard computer systems.
As for me, I gave up lusting for a new car over 20 years ago. I'm happy now to have a functional 8 - 12 year-old vehicle for my daily-transport (which excludes hybrids because that's the point where I could be facing an expensive battery replacement) And I'm delighted to have a nice, solid, computer-free, 240D as my second car.
Not to mention - no car payments.

Just hope Big Brother doesn't decide to legislate our old cars out of existence!

Happy Motoring, Mark

strelnik · #29 01-23-2011, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by busman1965

I don't get the hype with the hybrids, the old 1980's VW Rabbit Diesels got better mileage than the modern hybrids, how can the hybrid be an improvement? Heck, my old Citroen 2CV got 50+mpg on a 2 cylinder 602cc engine, and it was fun to drive. Also it cost less to make either of those cars, than the battery for a hybird costs.

YES!

The Europeans are making money off high-mileage diesels, but the US manufacturers can't make any money out of that mix.

This is about companies making money, and what cultures are used to.

strelnik · #30 01-23-2011, 01:01 AM

[QUOTE=martureo;2643325]I said electric CARS not electric MOTORS, the Clarity has an electric motor.[quote] Just because prius's are lame does not make hybrids useless.

Quote:

Actually it does. Unless of course you're claiming that the Lexus Hybrids don't suck.And what happens when you run out of electricity? How long does it take to "fill" it up again? What happens in the desert when you run out? Can you just go to the nearest station with a big electric jerry can? What is the range of a Tesla? I've got an even better question, what is the cost of a Tesla?

I'm saying that in the long run Hydrogen fuel cell vehicles allow a seamless
adaptation to a non petroleum fueled vehicle series. Yes, it is a packaging of energy and not an energy source, I never claimed that it would be. But Hybrids don't make a big enough of an impact and anyone who actually likes cars shouldn't buy one (except for the 911 hybrid). Electric only cars are good on paper and good in reality if you only lived in the city. You either have a slow electric that can't get out of it's way and takes 8 hours to charge or you have a fast electric that runs out of energy after an hour or so.

Hydrogen automotives is the way. Production of Hydrogen can be handled later.

I agree on hydrogen if diesel is not available or if there's a H2 car that can run like CNG.

With electric cars, what do you do about cold? Keep them warm all night? Try that in MInnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan etc.

I can remmeber visiting whunter when the weather was close to szero and seeing him just idle his OM617 in the driveway, locked, because of the weather.

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