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  #46  
Old 02-02-2011, 07:46 PM
C Sean Watts's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babymog View Post
Again you have ducked the issues. You have posted a Wikki, which is a user-submitted info site, no data nor documentation. You have referenced documents that don't exist, or at least nobody can find them, and have all but dropped your original blame on the RPM, which didn't even exist on the .970!

Have you at least then retracted your theory that max. operating RPM was a factor in the rod bending?
I retract NOTHING THE FACTORY ALREADY SAID until you retract implying I'm a liar. I posted repeatedly, "I think the factory was looking at multiple causes." I'll put my money where my mouth is - I have the microfische and the DVD. If you pay for it, I'll have them reproduced and sent to the address of your choice. Otherwise, please do not address me again until you're ready to do one or both.
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Last edited by C Sean Watts; 02-02-2011 at 08:05 PM.
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  #47  
Old 02-02-2011, 07:58 PM
layback40's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C Sean Watts View Post
I retract NOTHING THE FACTORY ALREADY SAID until you retract implying I'm a liar. I'll put my money where my mouth is - I have the microfische and the DVD. If you pay for it, I'll have them reproduced and sent to the address of your choice. Otherwise, please do not address me again until you're ready to do one or both.
Hey you guys, Lets not give John a head ache. I know you 2 are both very knowledgable & pashionate about these cars. Best not have a slanging match.
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1967 230-6 auto parts car. rust bucket.
1980 300D now parts car 800k miles
1984 300D 500k miles
1987 250td 160k miles English import
2001 jeep turbo diesel 130k miles
1998 jeep tdi ~ followed me home. Needs a turbo.
1968 Ford F750 truck. 6-354 diesel conversion.
Other toys ~J.D.,Cat & GM ~ mainly earth moving
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  #48  
Old 02-02-2011, 08:09 PM
babymog's Avatar
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You have proven nothing, I'm sorry that we disagree.

I'm not calling you a liar, just asking for links, documents, anything that would support the claim that Mercedes determined that max. RPM was a factor on the 4800rpm .970, didn't change the RPM, until later when they RAISED the RPM without problems.

My point is simply that there are several theories on this very thread, and those that preceeded it, from timing and Cetane, to engine RPM, to Tom's theory of hydrolocking that has its merit, and nothing has been posted yet to prove any of them. Your RPM theory can't possibly be valid since the RPM was reduced before the engine was released to production, despite your claim that it was reduced after 18months of production in the .971 version.

It would be nice to further explore possibilities, find real data that can be referenced and traced to a verifiable piece of research or paper.

I'm not entirely sure that Mercedes ever found the answer, they revised the cylinder head 4 times, the head gasket once, and the rods 5 times according to the EPC on the '91 SDL. The head revisions ran from the original #17 to #22 after the W140 was produced, not before, and the only explanation in the FSM is strengthening water jacket areas.

I apologize if you find my determination to follow only documentable leads offensive, I don't mean it to be. However, seeing the contradictions between the theories and the FSM makes it a bit hard to hang one's hat on the theories.
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  #49  
Old 02-02-2011, 08:54 PM
C Sean Watts's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by babymog View Post
You have proven nothing, I'm sorry that we disagree.
Dr. Zetche wouldn't prove anything at this point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by babymog View Post
I'm not calling you a liar, just asking for links, documents, anything that would support the claim that Mercedes determined that max. RPM was a factor on the 4800rpm .970, didn't change the RPM, until later when they RAISED the RPM without problems.
I do not have any way to reproduce a microfische or PAL format DVD without paying to have someone do it. I'll be happy to send you what I have at your cost. Other posts show the different RPM settings. And again, I said many times, "I think the factory was looking into more than one cause." and they included RPM and head gaskets. If you don't accept it, that doesn't bother me, nevertheless it is what it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by babymog View Post
My point is simply that there are several theories on this very thread, and those that preceeded it, from timing and Cetane
Ruled out - cetane was lower in EU at the time the rods were bending.
Quote:
Originally Posted by babymog View Post
Tom's theory of hydrolocking that has its merit,
I mentioned that already.
Quote:
Originally Posted by babymog View Post
and nothing has been posted yet to prove any of them. Your RPM theory can't possibly be valid since the RPM was reduced before the engine was released to production, despite your claim that it was reduced after 18months of production in the .971 version.
No, I said the .971 was introduced 16 months after the .970 - please reread. There was a time I briefly taught comm. college. Missing that would warrant zero credit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by babymog View Post
It would be nice to further explore possibilities, find real data that can be referenced and traced to a verifiable piece of research or paper.

I'm not entirely sure that Mercedes ever found the answer, they revised the cylinder head 4 times, the head gasket once, and the rods 5 times according to the EPC on the '91 SDL. The head revisions ran from the original #17 to #22 after the W140 was produced, not before, and the only explanation in the FSM is strengthening water jacket areas.
I found the EPC has three references for different head gaskets, that's on the pay subscription side, I do not know if it is the same on the free side. As of the printing of my fische printed '92 there was no mention of a change in rods. Going by sixto's pictures, that change was ~94 when the .972 was being built. Before then the bending had been stopped. I think there was a #20 head in there some time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by babymog View Post
I apologize if you find my determination to follow only documentable leads offensive, I don't mean it to be. However, seeing the contradictions between the theories and the FSM makes it a bit hard to hang one's hat on the theories.
I spent several years in the Army, therefore I do not take anything personally until someone steals from me. However, I will always debate....as the phrase goes, "When did you stop beating your wife?"
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  #50  
Old 02-02-2011, 08:55 PM
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Three years ago I bought a '91 350SD with 510,000 miles, drove it a year and at 535,000 it was destroyed in a crash. The engine was the most quiet, most smooth running diesel engine I ever had. Before junking the car I took out the engine and transmission and still have it saved should I ever need a repacement drivetrain for my '87 300SDL. A month ago, I bought another '91 350SD, 193,000 miles, slight front end crash damage, I'm in the process of fixing it now. Again, the smoothest, most quiet, diesel engine ever. Original engines on both. I'm including a few pictures, beautiful baby blue color, nice light interior. Maybe this one is a rod bender? Who knows, if it is, I'll let everybody know.

'87 300SDL 195,000
'94 SL500 55,000
'89 300TE 179,000
'91 350SD 193,000
Attached Thumbnails
Rod Bending ~ weak rods /poor fuel/ bad injector timing-bb7.jpg   Rod Bending ~ weak rods /poor fuel/ bad injector timing-bb10.jpg   Rod Bending ~ weak rods /poor fuel/ bad injector timing-bb5.jpg  
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'94 SL5000 60,000
'91 350SDL 545,000
'91 350SD 197,000
'00 E55 AMG 77,000
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  #51  
Old 02-02-2011, 08:58 PM
compu_85's Avatar
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The pictures of the original and updated rods are new!

http://www.w124performance.com/images/OM603_misc/603.971_bent_rods/3.5L_rods_both2.jpg

That would make it "semi" easy to see which one you had, just pop the oil pan off. I'll be sure to take pics of mine when I put black locktite on the windage tray bolts

I should ask Dave if I can mirror his site one of these days...

-J
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1991 350SDL. 230,000 miles (new motor @ 150,000).

2013 Fiat 500E. 20,000 miles, 80 miles at a time.
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2004 Touareg V10 TDI. 150,000 miles. One of 450.
1999 Jetta TDI. 310,000 miles.
1992 Jetta ECOdiesel. 156,000 miles. 1 of 48. Sold.
1991 Jetta ECOdiesel. 430,000 miles. 1 of 700. Sold to VeeDubTDI, totaled in front of our house
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  #52  
Old 02-02-2011, 09:19 PM
C Sean Watts's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcciem View Post
Three years ago I bought a '91 350SD with 510,000 miles, drove it a year and at 535,000 it was destroyed in a crash. The engine was the most quiet, most smooth running diesel engine I ever had. Before junking the car I took out the engine and transmission and still have it saved should I ever need a repacement drivetrain for my '87 300SDL. A month ago, I bought another '91 350SD, 193,000 miles, slight front end crash damage, I'm in the process of fixing it now. Again, the smoothest, most quiet, diesel engine ever. Original engines on both. I'm including a few pictures, beautiful baby blue color, nice light interior. Maybe this one is a rod bender? Who knows, if it is, I'll let everybody know.

'87 300SDL 195,000
'94 SL500 55,000
'89 300TE 179,000
'91 350SD 193,000
See if the local 'stealer-ship' will tell you if it is one of the cars that was fixed under the warranty program.
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1987 300D (230,000 mi on a #14 head-watching the temp gauge and keeping the ghost in the machine)
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  #53  
Old 02-02-2011, 09:23 PM
C Sean Watts's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by compu_85 View Post
The pictures of the original and updated rods are new!

http://www.w124performance.com/images/OM603_misc/603.971_bent_rods/3.5L_rods_both2.jpg

That would make it "semi" easy to see which one you had, just pop the oil pan off. I'll be sure to take pics of mine when I put black locktite on the windage tray bolts

-J
I think the rod change was a good idea but it seems to have come a little late in the program to save it. Loctite on the tray bolts would be 'breathe easy and pat yourself on the back' project.
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  #54  
Old 02-02-2011, 10:29 PM
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While you're in there, I'd locktite the oil pump bolt, a couple of incidences of those coming loose with catastrophic failure, and all six of the piston oil-squirters, one of mine came loose in my '91 and was crushed by the crank (mentioned in the FSM).

Compu: When you have the pan off, will you look at the fins on the inside of the pan and let me know if they look trimmed to clear the tray, or cast that way please. My '91 pan looked like someone milled the fins away from a .961 pan to clear the windage tray. I'm building a "more power" .960 and am considering installing a .970 windage tray "while I'm in there".
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