Suspension diagnosis for w123 - Page 4 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

JHZR2 · #46 02-08-2011, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yak

Go to the link I sent the other day and look at section 33-500. The orientation for the washers is at the bottom of page 3.

To fix the washers I'd recommend jacking up the car and put it on a jackstand, remove the tire (to get room to work), use your jack to lift the empty hub a little (remove some pressure off the UCA, but remember your other wheel is connected to the other end of the bar). Remove the bolt and washers from the tip of torsion bar, inspect the rubber, put the washers in the correct way (per the FSM), then reassemble. I couldn't tell from the pics if the rearward washer was correct or not, but I think it was. I don't think you even need to disconnect the UCA at all.

The only tools needed should be a jackstand, jack, tire iron and a 17 mm or other size wrench.

Don't be distracted by the eccentric bolt on the LCA, yet. Info on that is in 33-512, page 7. Yeah, yours is all the way to max camber but one thing at a time. If your car was tracking okay, don't mess with it unless you need to.

My issue with doing this is what if I need to do the inner washer too? Ill then need to somehow pull the balljoint without damaging it. This is NOT using a pickle fork. As Ive never done the hammer method, Ill not trust myself to do it. So how do I separate the UCA from the steeering knuckle so that I can fix it without damaging the balljoint?

Thanks again!

toomany MBZ · #47 02-09-2011, 09:45 AM

I bought this at the local NAPA store.

Use it to remove the ball joint without damaging it. Be sure to keep the threaded part from spinning when removing the nut. Newer ball joints have a hex there, so you can use an allen wrench to hold it.

But, as mentioned, if you are simply reinstalling the torsion bar washers, leave the ball joint alone.

Second pic, part numbers 80 & 83.

funola · #48 02-09-2011, 10:05 AM

Something's wrong in the 2nd pic. The rubbers (77) should be between 80 and 83.
At this point I am still questioning if your washers are correct or not. It is difficult to tell from the bad pics. You have a 240D, why not compare it to your 300CD to see if they are the same or different before trying to take it apart?

JHZR2 · #49 02-09-2011, 11:14 AM

I will as soon as I have a few seconds available.

Yak · #50 02-09-2011, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funola

Something's wrong in the 2nd pic. The rubbers (77) should be between 80 and 83.
At this point I am still questioning if your washers are correct or not. It is difficult to tell from the bad pics. You have a 240D, why not compare it to your 300CD to see if they are the same or different before trying to take it apart?

No. The pic is correct, but it's incomplete. It only shows the front side of the set-up. On the other side of that UCA you'd have another bushing (77) then another washer (80). 83 is the additional washer/spacer thing at the tip of the torsion bar, also not shown.

As far as removing the ball joint and protecting the rubber boot, the ball joint tool is probably your best bet. I've had good luck with the loaner tools from AutoZone or O'Reilly's. If you have a major parts chain nearby, see what they've got in their loaner program.

If you want to avoid the pickle fork and can't find the tool, you could try the "rapping with hammer/mallet method." Lift the car, remove the tire, support the LCA with a jack, but leave a bit of tension on the UCA ball joint. Loosen the nut but don't remove it. Rap the knuckle with a hammer near the joint and see if it pops off.

Your LCA is still fastened at both ends (eccentric bolt and shock) and the nut holds the knuckle from falling loose, but you've still got a small load on the spring to "pull" the knuckle away away from the UCA.

There's less control than with the tool, and less likelihood of tearing the boot, but a little higher risk since you're releasing a bit of energy. The success rate may vary.

Section 33-500 in the FSM.

JHZR2 · #51 02-17-2011, 02:29 PM

Ok, here is drivers side:

And passenger side:

I think yak is right, though what would that do? Create enough camber that the wheel would tilt and hit the guide rod? I can imagine it would effect the uca angle, as it is firm set based upon the location of the end of the swaybar, and that would effect steering knuckle angle, right?

winmutt · #52 02-17-2011, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHZR2

Create enough camber that the wheel would tilt and hit the guide rod?

I whole heartedly doubt it. Just take it to a proper dealership, they will certainly tell you what the problem is.

JHZR2 · #53 02-17-2011, 03:14 PM

But then what do I learn? I'd like to gain full understanding plus repair skill...

winmutt · #54 02-17-2011, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHZR2

But then what do I learn? I'd like to gain full understanding plus repair skill...

You tell them that if anything is needed beyond the alignment to call you first. Then when they call you and tell you what the problem is drive it home and fix it. Then go back and finish the alignment. Win win situation. I believe the only problem here is a crap alignment job in the first place.

Yak · #55 02-17-2011, 06:40 PM

My opinion, based on the stationary pics, is that your DS UCA ball joint looks bad.

Yeah, that's a real tough call and should be viewed as speculation. You should check for odd movement between the UCA and the knuckle.

Yes, that front washer on the DS UCA looks backwards. That MIGHT have let that UCA wander a bit and contributed to wear. Look closely at the distance from the base of the bolt to the "dish" on the washer. At a minimum, the DS bushing is less compressed than the PS, you can't tell from a pic if it's "loose" or simply "not as compressed".

The reason I suspect the ball joint is that the rubber boot appears to be almost rolled over the UCA. The PS pic you can sort of see the upper retaining ring. I just checked both sides of mine (same car, '83 300CD) and I can see the retaining clips on both boots. (Not a great diagnostic comparison since the UCAs and boots, etc, are different brands and any other variable). Maybe the rubber is just folded funny.

But I believe the dynamics of that fit the description of the support rod rub happening in reverse with the wheel left (correct?). In reverse, the hub is moving "forward" relative to the car, this "pulls" the UCA ball joint/bushing forward and creates an "overrotation".

Yeah, this is all maybes and possiblies but I think it all matches the description of what's happening.

You need to check that UCA/knuckle/torsion bar joint for movement. Grab hold and shake hard, maybe use a pry bar.

And yes, regardless, at the end of it he'll need an alignment by a competent shop.

JHZR2 · #56 02-17-2011, 06:44 PM

I assume the prying/checkout of this stuff has to be done with wheels off the ground, right?

Thanks again!

JHZR2 · #57 02-19-2011, 02:25 PM

OK, lifted the car up and did some prying.

Im pretty sure that my clunk/noise from behind the p/s dash is due to a bad idle arm bushing. Now, the steering is tight and responsive, but this is notable when I play on the steering or push the wheels about.

The tie rod at the p/s wheel has a tear forming, but there is no play in it by itself. I think I may have caused the tear by pulling on it. Im replacing all tie rods anyway.

The guide rod mounts neither make noise or seem to have any play when I pull on them, though I only am doing this from under the car on jackstands.

When playing with the wheels, this is what I found:
On the d/s, there is a tiny bit of play pulling from 11&4, and none at 2&8.
On the p/s, there is a tiny bit of play pulling from 11&4, and lots at 2&8. The p/s tie rod end boot is torn, and groan/play from the idler bushing.

Also, what do ou make of these LCA bushes?
P/S:

D/S:

Sure, I likely have a bad alignment. I noticed that with the wheels straight, the D/S tire appeared pointing outward (part of the wear issue of course).

I had an appointment at the dealer, but after finding the torn tie rod boot, Im going to wait on it until I get the parts and install them. The dealer Im using (Wilmington, DE) is about 35 miles away, so hopefully I can get alignment decent enough. Im keeping my irregularly-worn Dunlop Sport A2 tires on until I get new tires and are sure that all the suspension is sound. Im happy to do two alignments in Wilmington, as their price is half of the local dealer (Cherry Hill), and Ive had good experience with Wilmington... Unless there is some bad issue with my logic...

Thanks!

JHZR2 · #58 02-19-2011, 08:24 PM

Yak,

I got emailed that you made a nice reply, but it isn't loading... Did you post then delete the post?

Yak · #59 02-19-2011, 10:19 PM

Yes. I was posting at the same time you put up the pics. You'd more/less done what I was going to say: lift the car and see what happens.

I'd also recommend looking at the d/s UCA/torsion bar joint. From your description it sounds like you pulled on the tire at the respective clock positions. I'd grab onto the steering knuckle and see if that moves. A bad UCA joint was the consensus opinion on the "kicking out" of the d/s tire and it looks like that d/s washer is wrong. A quick fix may be to swap that washer around and see if the tire still moves out like in the early pics.

The rubber on the LCA bushings looks in good shape. They seem a bit torqued out of alignment with some shear on the rubber/metal, but the max camber setting on the eccentric bolt (the egg shaped washer in the pics) may be doing that.

If the brake-support bushings are original or old that may be the cause of the thunk. Is the rubber still bonded to the metal? If not, pull that back and peek inside.

Lots of play at 2/8 and a torn boot sound like a bad tie rod end. At least if I understand what you describe. Yeah, I'd replace that.

JHZR2 · #60 02-19-2011, 10:55 PM

Im going to fix the washer next time I lift the car. This afternoon I didnt have enough time to do it because of other chores. Ill then do that test.

I have the whole tie rod system and the idler rebuild kit on order from Phil. I have a new steering dampener that Ill put in just because I have it.

The guide rod bushings didnt have anything that I could pull back or peel off. They were solid and strong, looked good. Not sure if they are original or not - Id have to look through all the reciepts for the car.

I found that the idler was so noisy when I shook the tires or turned the wheel that it is a likely culprit. No matter what I did, I couldnt induce play on the guide rod or the mount.

Ill play with the steering knuckle with the car on the ground tomorrow, and then when I get the parts, will do so with it up in the air.

Thanks again for all your help!