Will Mercedes ever build another engine like the 617 - Page 4 - PeachParts Mercedes-Benz Forum

polarisrmk · #46 02-21-2011, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bustedbenz

What am I looking at, custom limo from somewhere?

In my opinion that's what the S-class should look like rolling off the mass assembly line, minus the window curtains. THAT looks like a proper successor to the w126.

Uh thats the Maybach 62. Based on an S-class, do a little research. Very expensive cars.

polarisrmk · #47 02-21-2011, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lupin..the..3rd

BMW is making entire intake manifolds out of plastic! Is it because a plastic manifold is more durable and reliable than metal? Of course not. It's because the plastic manifold is much cheaper to manufacture, and is "good enough".

Mercedes new M276 and M278 engines have plastic intakes as well. Also the M159 6.3 in the SLS AMG is plastic.

babymog · #48 02-21-2011, 01:43 PM

This is an old chant, the 617 vs newer engines. If your love for the 617 is because it's 100% mechanical, so is the 602/603. The only electronics on the engine are to control emissions/EGR and to keep the idle constant when the A/C kicks on. Both can be unplugged without problems, in seconds. On the 606 the IP is electronic, but it can be back-dated if you really want to, ... with a 603 IP.

Mechanical fuel injection on cars was great also, ... the Bosch CIS system. Eventually it needed to meet more stringent emissions requirements, went electronic-control (CIS-E) and on to complete electronic. The advances in technology between an M103/CIS and an M104 electronic engine are amazing to drive it; same displacement with about 80-hp more and at least that in torque, better mileage. If Mercedes didn't keep up with the other automakers then they would have no market.

So the differences (other than the efficiency and power etc. mentioned earlier)? The 603 had an issue with the head in '86/87, which was corrected. The vacuum pump was also updated. So this leaves you with the '90s version of the 3.0L OM603 (if it were still available here) being full mechanical, better in every measure of performance, and not having any common failure modes. No reason to bring back the 617.

Electronics are a natural progression in engines, including diesels. The large OTR truck engines (DD, Cummins, Caterpillar, Volvo) turned to electronics to control injection and boost in the late '80s, and are good durable engines. Typically electronics don't wear out, it's connections and bad maintenance that shortens their life.

If you want a 617-powered car, buy one. If that's not good enough, there are plenty of 617s around in junkyards, buy a couple and transplant them into more modern vehicles, it's a great hobby and we'll all follow your progress with envy. It just aint coming out of an automaker's doors that way.

Since66 · #49 02-21-2011, 02:04 PM

This from almost three years ago......and still no small diesel here.

Mercedes unveils new range of diesel four-cylinders

chasinthesun · #50 02-22-2011, 11:32 AM

Unveil a motor with real metal parts is what I say ,from the valve cover to the oil pan .Yes it would be more expensive but what Mercedes spent in the extra manufacturing cost would eventually get outshadowed by its strong value of craftsmanship.This is really my point .Its predicessor is whating in the wings if MB could visualize a new beginning to an end.

s38junkie · #51 02-22-2011, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lupin..the..3rd

BMW is making entire intake manifolds out of plastic! Is it because a plastic manifold is more durable and reliable than metal? Of course not. It's because the plastic manifold is much cheaper to manufacture, and is "good enough".

BMW says it's because they're "lighter" and add less weight up top.

That said, I have personally never seen or heard of a plastic intake manifold failing going all the way back to the 1992 E36 3 series where these were first used. Now plastic radiators and expansion tanks are an entirely different story and their failures across 90s+ BMWs of all models and sizes is well documented. My father's late 1999 540i ate it's OEM replacement radiator @ just 45K miles, which caused him to sell the car and buy a Honda.

babymog · #52 02-22-2011, 03:56 PM

Failures in the late '90s Crown Vic in police use.

The crossover tube (cooling system) goes through the plastic manifold, pressure pulses in the coolant (from full-throttle combustion) exceeded 150psi and caused failures, prompting the police interceptor versioin to get cast aluminum intakes.

So you've heard of one, ...

jt20 · #53 02-22-2011, 04:11 PM

I'll second this.

Except you always forget the 601!

and I dare anyone to find me a 616 that can tote 1.5 tons around a city and return 36 mpg religiously (with a granny foot) like my 190D.

It is completely mechanical. So Mercedes HAS made an engine like the 616 / 617... they've just graduated.

Quote:

Originally Posted by babymog

This is an old chant, the 617 vs newer engines. If your love for the 617 is because it's 100% mechanical, so is the 602/603. The only electronics on the engine are to control emissions/EGR and to keep the idle constant when the A/C kicks on. Both can be unplugged without problems, in seconds. On the 606 the IP is electronic, but it can be back-dated if you really want to, ... with a 603 IP.

Mechanical fuel injection on cars was great also, ... the Bosch CIS system. Eventually it needed to meet more stringent emissions requirements, went electronic-control (CIS-E) and on to complete electronic. The advances in technology between an M103/CIS and an M104 electronic engine are amazing to drive it; same displacement with about 80-hp more and at least that in torque, better mileage. If Mercedes didn't keep up with the other automakers then they would have no market.

So the differences (other than the efficiency and power etc. mentioned earlier)? The 603 had an issue with the head in '86/87, which was corrected. The vacuum pump was also updated. So this leaves you with the '90s version of the 3.0L OM603 (if it were still available here) being full mechanical, better in every measure of performance, and not having any common failure modes. No reason to bring back the 617.

Electronics are a natural progression in engines, including diesels. The large OTR truck engines (DD, Cummins, Caterpillar, Volvo) turned to electronics to control injection and boost in the late '80s, and are good durable engines. Typically electronics don't wear out, it's connections and bad maintenance that shortens their life.

If you want a 617-powered car, buy one. If that's not good enough, there are plenty of 617s around in junkyards, buy a couple and transplant them into more modern vehicles, it's a great hobby and we'll all follow your progress with envy. It just aint coming out of an automaker's doors that way.

babymog · #54 02-22-2011, 04:47 PM

Sorry, should have mentioned the 601. Personally I feel that the 602t was the replacement for the 617, same number of cylinders, roughly the same horsepower & torque, just a newer design. It too had the early head issues in '87, and the early vacuum-pump bearing, corrected later in production.

I should also correct myself in the 606 being electronic, the IP was mechanical, with electonic control, kind of like KE-Jetronic / CIS-E. I don't know if the 604/605/606 was ever offered in other countries without the electronic controlled IP.

engatwork · #55 02-22-2011, 05:23 PM

I was watching the BBC Top Gear show that was aired on 2/21/2011 and they reviewed some nice cars being driven through Albania, specifically a Roller Ghost and a new S65. One of the best Top Gear shows I've seen. Anyway, they made the statement that 80% of all registered cars in Albania are Mercedes Benz. On some of the shots there were 123's all over. They also showed a w124 bodied car go by that was labeled 250D. 2.5 liter turbo diesel 5 cylinder maybe?

bustedbenz · #56 02-22-2011, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by babymog

Failures in the late '90s Crown Vic in police use.

The crossover tube (cooling system) goes through the plastic manifold, pressure pulses in the coolant (from full-throttle combustion) exceeded 150psi and caused failures, prompting the police interceptor versioin to get cast aluminum intakes.

So you've heard of one, ...

This happened to me in my grandparents '97 Grand Marquis v8 while I was driving it -- 4 hours away from home, no less. Was going down the road just fine and all of a sudden the thing's overheating and there's no coolant left in it. Called AAA (I don't subscribe, but I was traveling with my boss and he had it) and they towed it home... poured garden hose water through it and once the thermostat opened, it was coming out the bottom faster than it could go in the top, just about. They ended up letting the dealer repair it; $$$.

panZZer · #57 02-22-2011, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by babymog

Failures in the late '90s Crown Vic in police use.

The crossover tube (cooling system) goes through the plastic manifold, pressure pulses in the coolant (from full-throttle combustion) exceeded 150psi and caused failures, prompting the police interceptor versioin to get cast aluminum intakes.

So you've heard of one, ...

By the way folks --There might be some crown vics still on the dealer lots--and Lincoln towne cars---
But 2010 WAS THE END OF THE BIG REAR DRIVE FORDS.

panZZer · #58 02-22-2011, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lupin..the..3rd

The age of the "overbuilt" engines is over. Way back when, before modern computer aided design and physics simulation software, the engineers overbuilt the components. I.e. they were designed significantly higher than their failure threshold, to ensure the reliability and longevity that customers expected in a premium car. Nowadays, computer allow them to save cost by designing components that just barely meet the requirements for the service life and warranty life of the vehicle. One only needs to open the hood of a modern car, and be astounded by the amount of plastic in there. BMW is making entire intake manifolds out of plastic! Is it because a plastic manifold is more durable and reliable than metal? Of course not. It's because the plastic manifold is much cheaper to manufacture, and is "good enough".

Additionally, the constant drive for companies to improve their margins and profitability in this difficult world economy, is frequently to the detriment of quality. Look at Porsche. Once the pinnacle of reliability, with their air-cooled flat 6 engine that was continually refined over several decades. Starting in the late 1990's with their new M96 water-cooled engine, they've had nothing but problems. That engine was designed specifically to be a lower-manufacturing-cost replacement of its overbuilt air-cooled predecessor. It's lower cost alright, but with nearly two dozen catastrophic new failure modes.

It's a win-win situation for the manufacturers. They save money by reducing their build costs, and they sell more new cars since the current ones don't last as long. The auto manufacturers and the federal government both want you to stop driving your old car, and instead trade it in for a shiny new one. Remember "Cash for clunkers"?

"They don't make 'em like they used to" is more and more true with each new generation.

oK --bUT THE MOST INTERESTING THING TO HAPPEN I GERMAN DISELS LATELY IS THE V10 TOUREG. What do you think about those --and they were mechanical injection in 2005-6

bamba · #59 02-22-2011, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by babymog

This is an old chant, the 617 vs newer engines. If your love for the 617 is because it's 100% mechanical, so is the 602/603. The only electronics on the engine are to control emissions/EGR and to keep the idle constant when the A/C kicks on. Both can be unplugged without problems, in seconds. On the 606 the IP is electronic, but it can be back-dated if you really want to, ... with a 603 IP.

Mechanical fuel injection on cars was great also, ... the Bosch CIS system. Eventually it needed to meet more stringent emissions requirements, went electronic-control (CIS-E) and on to complete electronic. The advances in technology between an M103/CIS and an M104 electronic engine are amazing to drive it; same displacement with about 80-hp more and at least that in torque, better mileage. If Mercedes didn't keep up with the other automakers then they would have no market.

So the differences (other than the efficiency and power etc. mentioned earlier)? The 603 had an issue with the head in '86/87, which was corrected. The vacuum pump was also updated. So this leaves you with the '90s version of the 3.0L OM603 (if it were still available here) being full mechanical, better in every measure of performance, and not having any common failure modes. No reason to bring back the 617.

Electronics are a natural progression in engines, including diesels. The large OTR truck engines (DD, Cummins, Caterpillar, Volvo) turned to electronics to control injection and boost in the late '80s, and are good durable engines. Typically electronics don't wear out, it's connections and bad maintenance that shortens their life.

If you want a 617-powered car, buy one. If that's not good enough, there are plenty of 617s around in junkyards, buy a couple and transplant them into more modern vehicles, it's a great hobby and we'll all follow your progress with envy. It just aint coming out of an automaker's doors that way.

This was an informative post, at least to me. Thanks Jeff.

johnnyqnola · #60 02-23-2011, 11:04 AM

this thread basically touches on the way the global market is going: cheaper construction = more profit.

look at houses built a year ago compared to houses built 100 years ago. the size and quality of the lumber used and the quality of the fixtures and hardware pale in comparison today, as opposed to what was used back then. now, sure... the insulation and energy-efficiency levels are now much higher. but what does a maintained masonry townhouse built in 1898 look and feel like, compared to a 1975 vinyl-sided ranch?

i just bought a 3-room brick house built in 1890 for $33,000 that only needed plaster repair to be move-in ready. per my insurance, the cost to rebuild this house today if it were destroyed would be $210,000! of course, it was a foreclosure and we are in a down market, but even 5 years ago during the boom it only sold for $70,000.

today, there just isn't the quality in materials or construction of anything--housing, cars, furniture, etc--that there was "back in the day". we have sacrificed quality for quantity and low cost.

i'm not stubborn: latex > lead paint. vinyl sewer pipes > cast iron or clay pipes. hardie board saves trees, and double pane glass saves dollars. but quality and longevity just don't sell to the current market anymore. shiny, fast, clean, and disposable things sell.